Mike Mussina, Hall of Famer?

First two years he learned. Last three years he's been an aged man.

In between, he was one of the greatest pitchers ever to pitch the ball.

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

...when the umps were calling wide strikes. Plus, his post-season record is very average. Where's the hero factor?

 

Correct, Xan. So it's fair to say he was dominant for 15 years (a significant portion) and very good for the rest.

 

You have to put players in the context of their times, not just absolutes.

Would Willie Stargell get a look if he were retiring today and started his career in 1987? He would be Andre Dawson.

If they aren't the greatest players, historically, like Clemens or Bonds or Gwynn, are they the greatest players of their generation.

Mussina fails on both accounts. Some players, couldn't get in today but were deserving at the time, like Stargell and some didn't deserve it at the time and seem less deserving now, Bunning and Tony Perez.

My bottom line would be, if they aren't in the top 50 players of all time, at their induction, they shouldn't be in. The Hall should be a progressive process, not a vacuum.

 

I can respect that, Superfly (I was a big Snuka fan, too).

BTW, and I ask out of respect, how old are you? I'd like to know if your opinion is based on if you watched him pitch much during the glory years. You don't have to answer that, either.

 

I think Mussina will probably get in eventually...he'll be the backlogger to the Clemens/Maddux/Martinez/Johnson era the way Bunning was to the Koufax/Gibson/Marichal generation.

Schilling is getting in and everyone seems to think Smoltz will get in now. Mussina is actually pretty similar to both:

W-L
Schilling 213-142
Mussina 246-141
Smoltz 203-143

ERA+
Smoltz 127
Schilling 126
Mussina 124

All three have about 3,200-3,300 innings pitched.

Mussina lags well behind the others in HOF Monitor:

Schilling 168
Smoltz 147
Mussina 109
(100 indicates likely HOFer).

Mussina is 105 games over .500; that's awfully impressive. I can't think of anyone who is 100 games over .500 and isn't a HOFer. He has about the same lifetime record as Juan Marichal (243-142).

There is only one eligible pitcher since 1893 with 200+ wins and a winning percentage over .600 who isn't in, and it's Carl Mays. Mussina is way above those marks -- 246 and .636. Unless he kills someone, he'll probably get in.

 

Don't forget Smoltz's saves.

 

PHINJ, your package of numbers puts things in a different light for me regarding Mussina. Maybe he is HOF material.

 

You have to be pitching very well for a very long time to get 250 wins in this day and age.

I think that meets #2 of the above scale.

 

Yeah, I'll admit I don't love Mussina but he is definitely better than his image. The problem is he's been overshadowed -- he had to pitch in the same league as Clemens and Pedro or Clemens and Johnson for most of his career.

No, he hasn't won 20, but A. that's a pretty borderline retarded arbitrary singular measure B. single-season win totals are a poor indicator of ability or value C. his lifetime wins and winning percentage are easily HOF-worthy and D. he won 16 in the big-strike year of 1994 and 19 (led league) in the small-strike year of 1995.

 

Xan,

I'm 23 years old, but I respectfully say that I know a hell of a lot about the game. Not as much as most on this board, but a hell of a lot. Growing up during his career -- which pretty much spanned my life, especially the time of my introduction to the game (around 1988), the first time I played (1992-3), the time I became obsessed with it (1995-2001), until now.

I have a certain perspective that's not shared by many board members, because their younger days might've been centered around Nolan Ryan, for whom I have no real feelings, or say, Jim Bunning, who has been referenced here many times.

During my formative baseball years (say, from age 5 through 20 -- around 1990 through 2005) there is a list of players who defined the game, moreso than just by statistics.

Ripken
Gwynn
Maddux
Clemens
Glavine
The Big Hurt
Junior
Bonds
McGwire
Sosa
Roberto Alomar
Pedro
Johnson
Schilling
Mattingly
Piazza
Ivan Rodriguez

I'm certainly forgetting some.

But the point is, like Mays and Mantle and Marichal and the Duke and Gibson and Sandy and Drysdale, etc., etc., etc. the above list is a sampling of players during MY era who left an imprint on a big fan. They all were at the top or near the top for a long time, they all basically stood out and, some years later, I remember key aspects of their careers.