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Mike Mussina: Hall of Famer?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by CD Boogie, Dec 8, 2016.

  1. Fly

    Fly Well-Known Member

  2. cisforkoke

    cisforkoke Well-Known Member

    Hey! No copying!
    Fly likes this.
  3. jr/shotglass

    jr/shotglass Well-Known Member

    OK. Banter is what Dickie defines it to be. Got it!

    Again, don't take yourself so seriously ... nobody else does.
  4. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Nice tagline, pussy. Go have another temper tantrum because someone dredged up one of your old, stupid posts.
  5. jr/shotglass

    jr/shotglass Well-Known Member

    Ouch. Gets a little testy when it's thrown back at him! Noted ...
  6. Fly

    Fly Well-Known Member

    Pissy Dick is not my favorite.
  7. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Not pissy at all. But if you don't understand the difference between you turning into a blubbering puddle of baby tears because someone needled you about your Paterno love, and me jokingly expressing frustration that people are baseball stupid, I really don't know how to help you.
  8. Fly

    Fly Well-Known Member

    Irrational Dick is also not a favorite.
    jr/shotglass likes this.
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Without the 22 years in which he could get to certain career numbers, no I don't think Bert Blyleven would have made it. I also am fairly certain that lots of other people think the same exact thing about Bert Blyleven having finally gotten elected.

    Did you watch Bert Blyleven play? My memory of him: He had a great curveball that hitters used to marvel at. He was very good, year after year. ... and also never someone anyone was thinking about as a Hall of Famer until after he was gone and they realized he had compiled 22 years. Other than 3 or 4 years where he was especially good, he just wasn't one of the most dominant pitchers of his era by most people's reckoning. At least at the time, the way Glavine was during his time (again, my opinion -- and lots of other people shared that opinion when Glavine played).

    You know what demonstrates how much others agree with that assessment? Blyleven started out with something like 17 percent of the vote when he was first eligible -- when his career was freshest in people's minds. And he built up to the vote total to get into the Hall after 14 or 15 years.

    Glavine got in on the first ballot.

    Yes, they both had long careers. That is a meaningless thing to point to when trying to make a point about WHY each is in the Hall of Fame. They were different players from different time frames. Glavine is not in the Hall simply because he played for 22 years and the longevity allowed him to turn "very good" into a Hall of Fame conversation. He's in because he was one of the best pitchers of his era -- and a lot of people thought so. Yes, my opinion is that Bert Blyleven would have never have been a Hall of Fame conversation if he hadn't grinded out 22 seasons. ... essentially staying very good for a very long time.

    For what it is worth. ... The thing you picked out of my post about Blyleven (which wasn't the point of the post, and not someone *I* had brought up, but still. ... ). ... I have you taking issue with my opinion that Bert Blyleven shouldn't be in. Which is fine. You don't agree with me. But first thing this morning, I find a post from JC with the typical bullshit I have gotten. It's usually dumb snark or a strawman with him that bares no relation to what I have posted -- but which is always an excuse to take a shot. This one was just "make up something that is the exact opposite of what he said," and then call him a name. In a post in which I responded to someone who brought up Phil Neikro, Bert Blyleven and Don Sutton saying that if he didn't think they belong, I agree with him (what you just responded to). ... From JC I got, "And Mussina less deserving than Niekrp, Sutton and Blyleven? You're drunk." (that being the entire substance of his post). I never said anything remotely close to that. ... as is often the case. I usually just ignore it.
  10. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Yes, I am old enough to remember watching Blyleven.

    I don't understand why you weight the contemporaneous evaluations of players' peers and media so heavily in these discussions. Your mileage on WAR may vary, but as a data point, Blyleven was in the top five in WAR for pitchers in the A.L. nine times in his career. He led it twice. He got dinged by dumb Cy Young and All-Star voters because he didn't win enough games, pitching for garbage teams.
  11. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    In 1973, Blyleven had a 2.52 ERA over 325 innings pitched. He allowed just 16 home runs over that time and struck out 258, second only to Nolan Ryan's 383 in the American League. He was second in ERA in the A.L. to Jim Palmer's 2.40 ERA over 30 less innings. Palmer's SO/BB was a terrible 1.40. Blyleven's was 3.85. Not surprisingly, Blyleven led him in FIP ERA by a full run. Blyleven completed 25 games.

    Blyleven compiled 9.9 WAR - tops among all players in the American League. He finished seventh in the Cy Young voting. I guess it's because he went 20-17. But Wilbur Wood went 24-20, with a 3.46 ERA, and finished fifth. Gaylord Perry went 19-19 with a 3.38 ERA - and the same number of voters put him on the ballot as Blyelven. One.

    The WAR of pitchers who finished ahead of Blyleven in the voting:

    Palmer, 6.3
    Ryan, 7.7
    Hunter, 1.8
    Hiller, 8.1
    Wood, 7.5
    Colborn, 4.6
    Blue (tied) 2.0
    Perry (tied) 7.9

    But I am supposed to take the judgments rendered by these people at the time seriously? You do, of course. In fact, you consistently rate it your most important data point. I'm embarrassed for you.
  12. jr/shotglass

    jr/shotglass Well-Known Member

    Wow. Well, Mussina had a better fastball than at least one person. :)
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