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Johnny Damon: Hall of Famer?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by 3OctaveFart, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. 3OctaveFart

    3OctaveFart Guest

    Let's run thru the checklist, members and moderators:

    -clean player
    -averaged over 100 runs scored in 18 seasons
    -piled up 2,769 hits
    -stole over 400 bases
    -career .284/.352/.433 slash line
    -played in at least 141 games from the '96 season until 2011
    -230-plus homers
    -good postseason player
    -starred on a beloved team

    That's a solid resume, moderators and members.
    Hard to argue with, I think.
    Like to hear your thoughts.
  2. Versatile

    Versatile Active Member

    Your checklist has flaws:

    -clean player
    You know this, how?

    -averaged over 100 runs scored in 18 seasons
    Actually, it only averages out to 100 a season if you exclude the first and the last.

    -piled up 2,769 hits
    That total puts him behind Harold Baines and Ken Griffey Sr.

    -stole over 400 bases
    -230-plus homers

    Those totals draw closest comparisons to Marquis Grissom.

    -career .284/.352/.433 slash line
    Which part of that makes you think he's a Hall of Famer?

    -good postseason player
    Except that his entire slash line is better in the regular season than the playoffs.

    -starred on a beloved team
    Beloved to whom?
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Not even close to a Hall of Fame player. A really good player.

    But by "clean player," I assume that means no roids or PEDs, right? I wouldn't bet on that one with your money. Either way, there is no definitive way to know.
  4. 3OctaveFart

    3OctaveFart Guest

    My assumption that he was clean is based on his durability for many seasons.
    And I'll take that bet.
  5. Gehrig

    Gehrig Active Member

    Damon is a classic example of having to decide what determines "greatness'. Let me emphasize that I'm not demeaning Damon- he's been a good ML player for many years. Coupled with his (valuable) ability to stay healthy and in the lineup, Damon has been able to run up a lot of pretty big counting numbers- in games played, at bats, hits, runs, doubles, stolen bases, etc. Many fans and also quite a few BBWA HOF voters are impressed by such numbers- and they should be. It's not easy to do what Damon has done.

    On the other hand, Damon has rarely, if ever, been a top echelon player. He had a really big season in 2000 and several other quite nice seasons. but, has he ever really been considered to be one of the top 10 position players in his league? Maybe once. Even though All Star selection can be pretty strange sometimes, it is a decent general indicator. Damon has been an All Star twice in 17 years. I use 4.5 WAR as a fair baseline for all star caliber seasons. Damon has reached that benchmark 4 times, been close a couple more. That's a good track record, but not an outstanding one.

    For me, defining greatness- and HOF worthiness- is looking at how good a player really was at/near his peak, as well as looking at how long he was able to be an effective player. Damon has done a very good job at the latter, but has not been that close to being a great player at any given time. He fails my personal HOF test because I think that a very high level of play is an essential component of greatness and HOF- worthiness.
  6. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    "Durability" as a measure of cleanliness? Clemens and Bonds and A-Rod will be happy to hear it.
  7. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Barry Bonds was pretty damn durable, too. Toss out his rookie year because he didn't play the whole season in the majors and the strike-shortened 1994, Bonds failed to play in at least 140 games only once before his age-38 season. At age 38, he played in 130, then back up to 147 the following season. Basically, he had one significant injury.
  8. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Exactly. This goes back to one of the major problems with the steroid accusations that get tossed around. People don't even seem to understand what these drugs do.

    Got stronger? Must be on steroids

    Got bigger? Must be steroids. (Never mind that some little guys have been busted for them, too.)

    Hair loss? Must be steroids (Because no man ever naturally loses his hair in his late 20s or early 30s, right?)

    Too many injuries? Must be steroids

    Too durable, especially later in a career? Must be steroids.

    Too good? Must be steroids

    Too good and he plays for a team I don't like? Hell, he's injecting an entire pharmacy into his ass every hour on the hour!
  9. 3OctaveFart

    3OctaveFart Guest

    ARod has missed over 160 games in the last four seasons.
    You might want to exclude him from your little group.
    If you are going to accuse Damon of PEDs, maybe you should present hard evidence other than your suspicion.
  10. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Even having missed them, A-Rod has played more games than Damon.

    No one's accusing Damon of anything. But asserting Damon's 'clean' thanks to his 'durability' isn't much of an argument.
  11. 3OctaveFart

    3OctaveFart Guest

    My instinct tells me he's clean.
    I will amend that given the proper evidence.
    Which I have been presented none.
    I hope you never sit on a jury.
  12. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    You're presenting your case ("clean player") without evidence ("my instinct").
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