John Elway

I was responding to BTE's comment.

 

Is dogshit a technical term? No one ever said that. But he certainly dragged talent-deficient teams to multiple Super Bowls. Marino never did.

 

Denver's defense in 1986 ranked 15th in the NFL, Miami's 26th.

Denver's defense in 1987 ranked 7th in the NFL, Miami's 17th.

Denver's defense in 1989 ranked --- drumroll, please . . . --- 1st in the NFL, Miami's 22nd.

Talent-deficient, my ass.

 

Then you are either dumb or grossly misinformed. I defy you to show me any credible and respected football minds willing to put their name (as opposed to message board sock puppet) behind the opinion that Marino was blessed with better rosters over the majority of his career than Elway. You won't find any, because they know it would only make them look as profoundly foolish as you look now.

And, btw, I note how you neglect to discuss defense here. Does defense not count? Can we not agree that defense is mighty important to a QB's chances of winning football games? I'm not wasting time with a detailed stat breakdown,but you can look at the numbers yourself, start here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/opp.htm) and look year by year at how their defenses performed during the years when Elway and Marino were in the league together. Not only did Elway most years clearly have the better defensive support, but often it was not even close, with Denver frequently ranking in the league's top 10 Ds and and Miami a frequent fixture near the bottom. Gee, think that inferior overall defensive support might've hampered Marino's pursuit of Super Bowl rings just a wee bit?

As for the rest of your post, I'm not wasting time going into some detailed player by player breakdown, especially if you're not willing to do the same. But suffice to say, Elway played with a long litany of All Pros on both sides of the ball throughout his career. If you don't believe me, get on the googler and look it up for yourself.

And, btw, I do find it somewhat amusing using Clayton and Duper as supposed proof of Marino's grand supporting cast. Before Marino showed up those were a couple of low-regarded bench-riding midget (both were only 5'9") receivers. Neither ever did a damn thing before Marino, nor a damn thing after Marino, and nobody would remember their names today if they hadn't been fortunate enough to play with Marino. Which, btw, is quite different from guys like Rod Smith and Shannon Sharpe, who looked just as good when Brian Griese was throwing them balls as Elway.

 

Dan Marino was the Don Mattingly of the NFL.

 

Refresh my memory. How did that awesome defense finish the 1989 season?

Also, what is your obsession with quarterbacks who struggle to get to and/or win Super Bowls?

 

No fucking way.

He's great, but not second-greatest since the merger. I'd take Staubach, Montana, Manning, Brady, maybe Favre, maybe Rodgers (if he keeps up), maybe Young, maybe Brees, maybe Fouts and maybe Marino over Elway. If Tarkenton counts (about half his career was before the merger), I might take him too.

Still great, and in the end, a winner, but the hagiography about Elway because he finished on top gets tedious. He's an average (for an all-timer) 45th all-time in interception percentage, and for someone with decent mobility, he got sacked a ton (73rd all-time).

He did a lot of great things too and aged very fine indeed.

Bad receivers? Not sure I'm on that train. He had decent receivers, no better than that, but he usually had an accumulation of them. Mark Jackson, Steve Watson, Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson? None are All-Pros on their own, but as a unit, that's not an easy group to account for coverage-wise.

There's no doubt his running backs, until Terrell Davis, where almost uniformly brutal. You'd get an oddball 1,000-yard season out of someone like Bobby Humphrey, but it was flukey.

 

You lost me at Dan Fouts. And you have the audacity to throw out Favre's name and then ding Elway for interception percentage? Come on, man!

 

Why? For his time and for the Coryell offense, Fouts was a very accurate deep thrower. He's an all-timer without a doubt.

Oh and as for interception percentage? Elway 3.1 percent, Favre 3.3 percent.

Elway ranks 45th, tied with nine others including luminaries like Aaron Brooks and David Carr. Four QBs are at 3.2. Favre is in a nine-way tie at 58th.

Point is we remember beginnings and endings. Elway ended on top. Favre's late career was laced with stupid interceptions. So Favre is perceived as interception-prone and Elway isn't.

Truth is, over the breadth of their careers, they were very close. They both had four full seasons where they threw more interceptions than touchdowns.

 

Yeah, but Fa re played for the Packers. Fuck him.

 

Understood.

Piggy-backing on that post, check out Fouts' stats under Coryell from 1978-85. Great argument can be made he was better than Montana over that period, at least statistically. Not to take anything away from the 1981 Bengals, but if the AFC Championship game is played on any other day other than the worst ice box in NFL history, we could've, and I think, would've had a Montana vs. Fouts battle royale in Super Bowl XVI. Too bad it didn't happen.

The year they blew it was 1979 when the Chargers were arguably the best team in the NFL (they actually had a good defense that year), but shit the bed in the playoffs against the Oilers.

Unfortunately, his career suffers a bit because of its beginning, when he had utter treacle in San Diego pre-Coryell, and by his final seasons, when that Chargers team went over the hill by his last years in 1986-87, even though San Diego nearly made the playoffs with tape and bailing wire in 1987.

 

I loved watching those Chargers teams as a kid. Remember being shocked when San Diego traded John Jefferson to the Packers.