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Jimmy Carter and Hamas

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by The Big Ragu, Apr 18, 2008.

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  1. Bubbler

    Bubbler Well-Known Member

    No one on Earth defends tactics like that.

    However, if the roles were reversed, whose to say the other side wouldn't do the same? Until Israelis are systematically disenfranchised by Palestinians for 60 years, we'll never know.
     
  2. Breakyoself

    Breakyoself Member

    With each side unwilling to compromise on much, if anything, real peace won't happen.
     
  3. OTD

    OTD Well-Known Member

    The irony is that Israel is treating the Palestinians pretty much the way the Jews were treated in Europe for most of the past two millennia. Taking their land, herding them into walled compounds where there is no land, little work and little food. They have walked in their shoes, and now the Israelis are throwing those shoes over the wall into Gaza.
     
  4. sportschick

    sportschick Active Member

    And if my child was in danger of being killed by a bomb strike because some foreign government thought there might be a terrorist two buildings over or if I couldn't feed my child because I'd been locked out of my job by a fence built by a foreign goverment, I'd seriously consider blowing myself up to make a point.

    That walking a mile in another's shoes works both way.
     
  5. Bubbler

    Bubbler Well-Known Member

    Jews were treated that way primarily in the Russian Empire.

    In the rest of Europe, they might have been ostracized, but they weren't disenfranchised. Jews were very successful, and in some states, powerful, until the rise of nationalism in the 19th and 20th centuries caused Jews to wrongfully be the scapegoats of xenophobia, with the terrible endgame being the Holocaust.
     
  6. three_bags_full

    three_bags_full Well-Known Member

    You're the one who criticized the process. Not me.
     
  7. Elliotte Friedman

    Elliotte Friedman Moderator Staff Member

    Been to Israel four times: once, at 16, as part of a tour; once during the second intifada (at the time I may have been the only tourist in the entire country. Things were frightening, but I wanted to experience what is was like there during a war); two years ago, during the Lebanese war because my sister lived there and I wanted to make sure she was okay; and, finally, last summer for her wedding.

    I'm always amazed at how so many North Americans really have no clue about what's really going on over there.

    Israel is undergoing enormous cultural change. Quite simply, its secular people are losing the appetite for war. Sure, there are the hawks like Sharon -- before he died -- and Netanyahu, and there are the religious zealots who cause a ton of problems, but the majority of the Jewish population are getting tired of the fighting. My sister is one of those people. I asked her about the Palestinians, and she said, "It's time to give them a life, some hope."

    She is not in the minority. Many of the current grandparents and parents understood the need for war from 1948 to 1986 (I use that date because it's the first time I went). But the hope was that those wars would be fought to ensure their children and grandchildren could live in some kind of peace. Israeli papers cover war deaths just like Canadian papers do. Every time one of ours dies in Afghanistan, it's a huge story. Full-page pictures, large profiles, lots of hand-wringing. So, two years ago, all of those obituaries, sometimes as many as 25 in a day, well, they had an impact. Many Israelis are tired of fighting.

    Many of the secular Jews are also getting tired of the religious ones. The army is spread so thin defending the disputed settlements that it affected Israeli's ability in the most recent war. That didn't go over well. Plus, religious Jews don't have to serve, which angers everyone else. I could see a day when the army retreats from defending these areas or forces the settlements out. I know there are plenty of people who would like to see that happen.

    Tell you a story: during the war, there was construction on the street right next to my sister's apartment. Midway through my trip, she told me all of the workers were Arab, which surprised me. I sure wouldn't have known if she hadn't said anything. Problem is, while Arabs can work and travel safely in many areas (not the religious ones for sure), going to certain parts of Israel is a death sentence for Jews. One day, we took a wrong turn in our car while visiting the Western Wall. We ended up in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab, and it was uncomfortable. You could feel the stares, the tension, the danger. We got out of there quick.

    A Jew/Westerner in Ramallah, in Jenin, is risking death. As a matter of fact, there are military roadblocks preventing anyone who doesn't belong there from going.

    That's why someone like Sharon or Netanyahu can win an election. I will not defend many of Israel's tactics. There are few unbloodied hands on either side. The Israelis want to turn the country over to the moderates, but are afraid because the fact is that many people in that part of the world are taught from birth to hate Jews and hate Westerners. (Just read an Egyptian or Saudi or Iranian newspaper.) I have no doubt that many Arabs want a peaceful future for their children, just like Israelis do for theirs.

    However: those people aren't in charge. Israel created some of this with brutal policies that turned a generation against them, but there is no doubt that the secular part of the country wants to see if it can affect change. Problem is, they look at their children and say, "Do I risk the life of my son/daughter if I'm wrong about this?" Then, they get into the voters booth and put Netanyahu back in power.

    Hamas is a legally elected government and its election victory did not go unnoticed by the Israeli moderates who said, "Our problems here are worse than we think." However, its stated goal is the end of the Jewish state. How can you negotiate with that? That's why Carter disappoints me. Thirty years ago, he put Sadat and Begin in a room and got them to sign a historic treaty. (Sadat's assassination undoubtedly scared a lot of moderate Arabs, just like Rabin's did for Jews. What was Arafat's quote to Mike Wallace? "Do you want me to end up like Rabin?") Now, if Carter really cared about peace, he would tell Hamas, "I can pressure Israel into meeting with you, but you've got to make concessions too." Instead, he's angered Israel, emboldened the hawks and scared those secular people who do want to try and change things.

    Guy should be forced to give back his Nobel prize. He's just guaranteed another ride on the circle of violence.
     
  8. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    I wasn't sure who had said it, so, when I had the time, I looked it up. It was Benjamin Netanyahu who said it (and he referred to Arabs instead of Palestinians).

    It's a situation where you wish that people would say, 'enough, it's been 60 years, stop fighting.' Unfortunantly, there's too much past history for anyone over there to move on.
     
  9. I didn't criticize "the process."
    I criticized the US bungling that led to "the process."
    There are two choices: no elections or a Hamas government. Please pick one.
     
  10. jgmacg

    jgmacg Guest

    This seems timely.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html
     
  11. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    Nobody ever made peace by negotiating with their friends. This simple fact seems to escape many people.
     
  12. old_tony

    old_tony Well-Known Member

    Here's an interesting take on Carter from former New York Mayor Ed Koch:
     
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