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Jimmy Carter and Hamas

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by The Big Ragu, Apr 18, 2008.

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  1. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    Deplorable? What are they? Are you going back 25 years? 60?
     
  2. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    When? Where? This is nonsense. There is a difference between accidentaly killing innocents who are used by their brethren as human shields in pursuit of terrorists, and specifically targeting innocents. The moral obtuseness on this thread is very disheartening.
     
  3. OTD

    OTD Well-Known Member

    I don't think it has anything to do with dignifying them. It has to do with their chances of being re-elected if the Jewish lobby and the religious right team up to vote them out of office.

    We do that all the time. And your description fits the Israelis as well as Hamas.

    I agree with you that Hamas is wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm just pointing out to you that Israel is little better, unless you think that an F-16 firing missiles at an apartment building is somehow more morally defensible than blowing yourself up at a bus stop.
     
  4. jgmacg

    jgmacg Guest

    March 2008. Gaza. Nobody's blameless in this.

    http://amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/children-and-civilian-bystanders-gaza-death-toll-20080303

    In the past two months, Israeli forces have killed more than 230 Palestinians in Gaza, including scores of unarmed civilians, and wounded and maimed many others. During the same period, Palestinian armed groups have continued to fire qassam and other rockets indiscriminately at Israel from the Gaza Strip, mostly towards the town of Sderot but also, last week, the more distant town of Ashkelon.

    One Israeli civilian has been killed and several injured by such rockets fired from Gaza into Sderot and other areas by Palestinian armed groups.

    Amnesty International has again called on Hamas and the Palestinian Authority to ensure that Palestinian armed groups cease immediately from carrying out indiscriminate attacks against Israel, and for those responsible to be held to account.

    "It is high time that the leaders of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority (PA) took effective steps to prevent and punish attacks on civilians in Israel," said Malcolm Smart, "but their failure to do so does not make it legitimate for the Israeli authorities to launch reckless air and artillery strikes which wreak such death and destruction among Palestinian civilians.

    "At the same time, the Palestinian armed groups who launch frequent rocket attacks from Gaza into nearby Israeli towns not only show a callous disregard for the lives of Israeli civilians but also expose the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip to the danger of Israeli attacks."

    Malcolm Smart said that Amnesty International condemned all attacks on civilians, but that "unlawful attacks by one side cannot justify violations by the other."
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    They keep making the situation worse by building settlements in disputed areas, which amount to hostile acts that are designed to provoke further tensions. I suspect this is meant to give themselves more leverage if peace talks ever do intensify, but it is despicable and makes the situation worse. I also don't begrudge them fighting back and going after Hamas thugs responsible for murder, but their methods--the missile attacks--have often shown a callous disregard for innocent life. They very often take out a half dozen innocent people, including children, when they attempt their "targeted" assassinations. This is not only barbaric behavior, it makes the frustration and intense hatred among the people living like cattle in refugee camps much greater. Which is the real point of this. Whether there are any justifications, or not, the Palestinians largely live in fenced in refugee camps, without freedom of movement, and in intense poverty. A large piece of their dignity has been stripped by those living conditions. Their frustration is borne from a sad reality. This is not entirely Israel's doing. As much as Jordan is the first to always criticize Israel, the Palestinians were traditionally Jordanian natives, and Jordan would rather see them live that way than welcome them to their country. But this is now Israel's problem -- and Israel's doing -- and as long as you are treating people that way, you can't completely claim the moral high ground.
     
  6. OTD

    OTD Well-Known Member

    You make my point very well, except for the part about Jordan. These people didn't live in what's now Jordan, they lived in what's now Israel. They want to live where they've lived for centuries. Also, it's not like Jordan has a lot to offer these people. There aren't many jobs or wealth there--Jordan didn't get the oil that the other countries got.
     
  7. Armchair_QB

    Armchair_QB Well-Known Member

    Except, of course, Hamas doesn't want a dialogue. All it wants is to destroy Israel.
     
  8. spnited

    spnited Active Member

    And all Israel wants is to destroy all Palestinians.
    No winners here. No good guys here
     
  9. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    I believe someone from that part of the world said about 2,000 years ago that you should ove your enemies.

    I give Jimmy Carter credit for creating dialogues.

    It's a lot harder to hate people that you know -- most people, anyways.
     
  10. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    There was a quote by an Israeli, and I forget who said it. But essentially, the Israeli said that if the Pals put down their arms, there would be peace tomorrow. If the Israelis put down their arms, they would get annihilated.
     
  11. Armchair_QB

    Armchair_QB Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry but I guess I don't recall any member of the Israeli government saying they wanted to wipe Palestine off the map. They'd just like them to stop blowing themselves up on buses.

    Hamas has stated repeatedly it won't rest until it destroys Israel. Pretty big difference.
     
  12. zeke12

    zeke12 Guest

    Things really don't equate like that, spnited.

    At a very fundamental level, Hamas and the PLO exist in direct opposition to Israel. Israel exists as a democratic nation. There is a difference.

    And, Jordan certainly has to take some of the blame for the refugee situation. Yes, the Palestinians were displaced. But that has happened how many times in how many places on earth? Which nations' boundaries weren't decided by a shooting war?

    No, Israel has not been kind to the refugees. Their hands are dirty. But none of the surrounding nations has done much -- if anything -- to alleviate the suffering of those people, either. They have very much been used as pawns in a political game. And there's plenty of blame to go around.

    All that said, Carter's timing is bad, and of course the PR will be terrible, but, ultimately, what can we eventually do but continue to try and help negotiate a settlement? You have to try. And trying means talking to Hamas, who was elected.
     
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