Jeff Passan on David Ortiz's HOF credentials

Overall, I couldn't possibly disagree with Joe more on this topic. He is one of the vindictive HOF voters out to punish anybody they can connect to PED use and his standard of evidence is far too low.

That said, I can't buy either of these arguments. Steroids were always against the rules, and they were illegal. The testing and punishment was not in place, at least not like it is now, but your argument does not justify what Ortiz did.

Secondly, I'm as frustrated as anybody with the number of leaks involving PED tests by MLB. All these crusaders like Joe should be raking MLB over the coals for violating its promises to these players with at least as much fervor as they go after the players, but that just isn't happening. It seems to me, that they are happy to justify any means to busting a PED user, no matter what violations of trust and rules MLB has to commit to do it.

BUT....how word of Ortiz's failed test got out is irrelevant when considering his career. We know about the failed test. We can't make that knowledge go away.

 

As much as I hate to agree with Zag on anything, that is a terrible argument. Actually, I'm not even sure I understand the point you were trying to make. That somebody under 25 would have been too much of a fanboy then to look back on those years with anything but nostalgia now?

By the way, I was over 25 in 1998. I think Drip was, too. Does that mean our opinions count?

Also, I'm fairly certain buckweaver is still in his 20s. Can't say I always care for his attitude, but I'll stack his baseball knowledge and perspective against anybody on here.

 

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9518651/a-weekend-baseball-hall-fame

The old morality vs. productivity issue. If the issue people have with PEDs is a moral one, than start kicking out a slew of people. I really think the issue for most people is how much PEDs produced on the field. This is why there are so many spitballers and greenie users in. The writers don't care about morality, but how much the perceived moral choices affected baseball results.

Of course the proof will be in the pudding for this philosophy when the first guy is up who (through reliable accounts) only used PEDs once or for one season. That hypothetical player may have had less help in achieving his stats than the greenie guy or spitballer. But will they get the pass too?

It is all about consistency. If you think it is a moral issue, than set the same bar for all players who violate your moral standards. If it is a practical concern, than evaluate how much each player was helped or hurt by his infraction and judge accordingly.

 

The problem is there is no real way to know that a guy only used once or for one season. It is ridiculous to make that argument regarding anyone who has been caught.

You've got voters, including at least one on this site, arguing for keeping guys like Jeff Bagwell and Mike Piazza out when there is no reliable evidence against them at all. It would be a stunning act of hypocrisy for any of them to give David Ortiz or any other player who has tested positive or admitted PED use the benefit of the doubt.

 

How old were you when Gaylord Perry pitched? Bunch of hypocrites.

 

I had to look over Ortiz' work and if he gets 500 homers, he's in. However, I don't think he belongs in the Hall before Martinez.

 

Check your totals. He has 431 dingers.

 

To be honest, I believe both Ortiz and Sheff are borderline cases for the Hall. Martinez should be there. I feel that he set the standard of what a DH is.

 

Never mind that Ortiz has been more productive and has a significantly higher career OPS.

 

He'll get in. His numbers are borderline, writers love him and he was the hero who helped snap the Curse of the Bambino.

 

My bad. I made a similar error to the one you did. I was looking at Ortiz's OPS in Boston, not his entire career.

I have no problem taking the home ballpark into consideration. I just don't think the existing metrics do it accurately. You also have to remember that Martinez became a full-time starter for the Mariners in 1990, when they played in the Kingdome. I believe Safeco opened in 1999.

 

Ha. Not a bad idea.

I'm not sure if it is a change or not. I just know I was careless when I looked the numbers up.