Jeff Bagwell and Fred McGriff - HoFers?

Completely agree... All three will get in for that reason...

 

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Biggio is such a slam dunk on the first ballot.

This is his average season:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS+
618 105 174 38 3 17 67 24 7 66 100 .281 .363 .433 111

So I was wrong. He was only 11 percent better than the average hitter. And his defense was average.

He was good for a long time, but seldom was he very good or great. The 3,000 hits are all he has that says Hall of Famer.

 

To be fair, that is his average per 162 games, not his average season. I'm not sure if that helps or hurts his cause. I'll leave that to the true seamheads to figure out.

Biggio was a 12-time All-Star and I think you might be underrating his defense at second base a bit, but that's subjective. He did win four Gold Gloves, for what that's worth.

 

The Hall should be more about how a player is perceived as a star. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of OPS+. If OPS+ becomes a major criterion, it'll be a sad day. So yes, how popular somebody is can be a factor. And before somebody invokes New York, being in Minn. didn't hurt Kirby Puckett. And his stats weren't the greatest, but he was a definer of his era. Counts way more than OPS+

 

Let's not get carried away here.

If the 1995 Braves won "largely on the back of" anybody, it was Maddux, not McGriff. True, McGriff did lead the team in all the Triple Crown stats (had 3 more HRs than Justice and 7 more RBI than rookie Chipper.)

But neither of his Series home runs are remembered now -- his Game 1 solo HR tied the game at 1-1 in the 2nd inning, and his Game 3 solo HR cut the Indians' lead to 4-2 in the 6th, in a game the Indians won in 11 -- and Justice had a far more memorable homer in Game 6.

His OPS in the Series was a lot lower than Klesko's, who led the team with a 1.296 OPS in the Series. McGriff also struck out a team-high 7 times.

(To be fair, the 1995 Series was actually one of McGriff's worst postseason series. He was very good in the '95 WS, but he was far better in just about every other one he played in.) Career .303 postseason hitter with 10 homers in 50 games. Pretty good.

It's not a legit question, because it only happened twice.

Both the 1993 Braves and 2001 Cubs acquired McGriff near the trading deadline. Neither won the pennant, let alone a championship. (Cubs, who were up 3 games on the Astros on 7/27/01 when they made the trade with Tampa Bay, lost the lead on Aug. 13, fell 9 games back in mid-September and finished in third place.)

Does McGriff get "punished"? Definitely not for the reason you listed, which simply isn't true. Toronto traded him (and Fernandez) away and got two of the best players in their history in return. Atlanta let him go, and signed Andres Galarraga two days later (who had a better season in 1998 than McGriff ever did with the Braves.)

And the Devil Rays ain't signing anybody as a "missing piece," that's for sure.

 

So you would vote for Jose Canseco? He was perhaps the most "famous" player of his era. He certainly defines his era too - for better or worse.

 

If Bagwell played at Fenway his whole career (remember who drafted him and traded him away for Larry Andersen) he would have blown Rice out of the water. He'd have at least 550 homers.

By the time Bags moved into what is now Minute Maid Park, he was already on the downswing of his career and his chronic shoulder arthritis that eventually forced him out early. Before that started, he was also a top-notch defensive first baseman and a threat to steal bases, something very rare among 1B's especially in his time.

 

A logical fallacy demonstrated:

Fame is required to be a Hall of Famer.
Jose Canseco has fame.
Therefore, Jose Canseco should be a Hall of Famer.

Contrapositive error, I think

 

Dooley - it is you talking about being a famous player or a marquee player being a prerequisite. Not me.

 

But what he was saying is that all HOFers should be famous, not all famous people should be HOFers. So you can't JUST say "he's famous, he should be in."

(at least that's the point as I understand it.)

 

Neither

 

How many of you here have an actual HoF vote? Just wondering.