Jayson Stark's Most Over-rated/Under-rated list

Isn't ANY New York entity overrated? Just has to be with all the provincials who are from there.

 

I have no idea what you mean. Ryan should have had roughly the same run support as any other pitcher on his team. If he were truly one of the all-time greats (say top five), he should have had a higher winning percentage than his team.
Stark said he didn't win that much more than his team.
To me, it's a pretty good argument.
Obviously Ryan could pitch. You don't have seven no-hitters and all those strikeouts otherwise. But maybe he wasn't as good as his reputation.

 

Kevin Brown in 1996 had 3.15 runs of support per start on a team that scored 4.52 runs per in the games he didn't start...

You getting this?

 

Yes, I'm getting that. I don't have the figures, but are you actually arguing that over his entire career, Nolan typically had much less run support than his teammates?
That would be quite a statistical anomaly if that held true for him.

 

I don't have the time to check out every season of his, but his 1987 was criminal.

 

Secretariat only should have won the Belmont by 15 lengths.

 

Y'all are arguing different points.

Simon's right here: Just because Ryan got poor run support doesn't mean his teammates' numbers are similar. Kevin Brown in 1996 shows that.

Okie's right here: It does even out, over the years. Ryan's run support was about average over his career. 1987 was a true anomaly.

***

As an aside, this stat is skewed by the fact that he played 27 years, but consider: Ryan started 63 career games in which his team scored no runs. Only Walter Johnson is higher, with 65.

Walter Johnson........65
Nolan Ryan............63
Phil Niekro...........61
Steve Carlton.........57
Tom Seaver............56
Claude Osteen.........50
Don Sutton............49
Fergie Jenkins........49
Gaylord Perry.........47
Cy Young..............46

***

Back to Ryan's 1987. There's really no other season like it, in the post-Dead Ball Era. Most dominant pitcher in the National League, led two of the three Triple Crown categories ... yet run support and an abysmal bullpen gave him an 8-16 record. Read more: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/library/columns/gs_040601.htm

That said, Ryan's run support was about average (not great, not absymal) except for 1987 and 1971 (a year when he only received 87 runs of support in 26 starts -- and 20 of those runs came in one game!)

Tanana had a better ERA for those mid-1970s Angels teams (1974-78, before he got hurt), and consequently had a better record. Ryan was stingier with hits and strikeouts, certainly, but Tanana was a better pitcher. He allowed fewer runs and won more games. That's not just because of poor run support.

 

Some thoughts:
1) I've always liked Jayson Stark, and I think he was trying to prompt debate, and I think he did.
2) I think Yogi is on the under-rated list because when people hear his name, they think about his humorous quotes and stuff before they think about what a darn good (and smart) ballplayer he was.
3) Frank Robinson put up some amazing stats even though he played in an era that wasn't the best for hitters. And he was overshadowed by Aaron and Mays, who was probably the best player I ever saw.
4) I've mentioned Stan Musial to 20-something colleagues and they give me a blank stare ... I remember reading that in the 1940s, there was debate about whether Musial or Ted Williams was the better hitter, but there was never any debate about who was the better all-around player ... it was Musial. But younger fans are more likely to know Williams than Musial. (And from what I've heard, Musial was a good guy and Williams was a prick.)

 

What about Johnson's season a couple of years ago with the D-Backs. By far the best pitcher in the league, but if I recall correctly, a record at or around .500. One of Clemens' years with the Astros was also similar. Neither as dramatic as 8-16, but same idea.

 

Not at all, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just bringing other examples of seasons where the W-L obscured who had the best season.

 

Oh, we could fill 10 pages with that debate.

(Including Johan's third Cy Young in '05 ...)

What I meant was that nobody's ever had a season quite like Ryan's in 1987, where his W-L was THAT skewed -- to the point where the best pitcher in the league had a .333 win percentage. Clemens and Ryan were at least over .500, which is hardly comparable.

 

Colon over Santana that year was just brutal. Just brutal.

I know I'm a homer, but come on...