Is Bush worth lifetime protection?

Say this . . . fact it was used (twice!) has done much to serve as an effective deterrent, in the interim.

 

It's the kid running to get his dad's bow during the afterschool fight -- graceless and unsportsmanlike.

We're one bad thought process from seeing another mushroom cloud.

 

both of them didn't go to u.t., one went to yale.

 

Might want to check with slappy on that one, since I was responding to his comment:

 

Experts in history and military strategy say pretty much across the board that if the U.S. had gone through with Operation Downfall (both Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet), the U.S. would have lost AT LEAST 1 million lives. That doesn't include untold millions of Japanese lives lost by invading Japan. Not to mention people willing to fight to the last human to protect their homes, their families and their ways of life.

If anything, Truman's decision, as controversial as it may be, may have saved the lives of millions. That doesn't discount the horrific death tolls from those explosions. However, it's pretty damn likely that we would be talking about millions of deaths and completely shattered world economies.

I think ultimately, Truman had to do it. It's not a decision to make lightly. It's not a decision to celebrate with any gusto. But he had to do it. It happened. A war that devastated millions of people and would have destroyed the lives of millions more came to an end because of Truman's decision.

 

The Japanese decided to trudge on despite hundreds of thousands of leaflets dropped on Japan announcing that Hiroshima
might not be the end of the power display, and they might want
to lay down their arms prior to a second demonstration.

 

Dubya can get all the protection he needs....in Gitmo

 

Whomever is an ex-president..

There is a point where it becomes a question of how much money can be spent.

If there was a threat against GW Bush in year 11, the President could direct that the Secret Service provide protection. I think a former President gets an allotment for a staff, although I don't think it is a huge staff. I believe Diane Sawyer did this for Nixon after he resigned.

There was a book written by a former Secret Service agent who protected Nixon when he lived in New York. It sounded like a boring job. The other thing you have to consider is whether Secret Service personnel could be better used to fight counterfitters.

I wonder if some former presidents would not want protection after a certain point, or not want round-the-clock protection.

 

Great post, F_T, I wish I could have said it better myself. There's no way we can equate Downfall to Iraqi Freedom. Different type of war, different time period. Both LJB and Mustang are taking the polarized partisan opinions here. An invasion of the Japanese mainland would have destroyed this country; it is not at all certain that we win the Pacific war if we choose any other route than the bomb. We're talking WWII coming to a close in 1947 at the very earliest and we end up losing approx. 1.4 million Americans, rather than 400,000-plus. Stimson and other officials were terrified that the American people would form an uprising against the government in order to end the war if such events transpired. We can't imagine the possibilities and the fears they were wrestling with at that time.

LJB, your comment about the advent of 20th-century American diplomacy is just so short-sighted and reactionary. It's one of the reasons we liberals get a bad name.

As for the matter of this thread, people deserve respect. Not presidents. Has Bush erased all shred of respect I have for him as a person? Pretty much, but I, and the rest of us, need to look past that, and, to borrow a cliche, be bigger people and ultimately respect the office.

Give every ex-president a Secret Service detail---but one that does not operate at the same strength as a sitting president. Assign them to the ex-prez's primary residence. If the ex-prez wants to travel out-of-state or out-of-country, he has to pick up the traveling expenses for every member of his detail.

 

Olive Oil --

The government's own 1946 study determined the bombs were unnecessary, and that "prior to 31 December 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

All slaughtering of non-combatants defies international law regardless of weapons employed, whether the killing is by simple gunfire or whether it liquifies skin. How the war would have played out is simply conjectural.

 

Speaking of conjecture, I think it's a false idea that WWII would have lasted until "1947 at the very earliest." Keep in mind that Germany was out of the picture by May 1945. Even if Japan chooses to keep fighting, which was somewhat unlikely, it's also realistic that the Chinese (although weak militarily) and Soviets would have joined the Allies on the Pacific front to end the war for good. Don't think they wouldn't have jumped at the chance to kick Japan as it was down.

I know Europe didn't have much stomach to send troops to a new front by then, but their fight was finished. And Japan didn't have much strength left. An invasion would have cost lives, yes, but the Allies knew the war was almost over -- Truman knew it, too. How many lives did the bomb "save"? I don't think anybody can know. So I don't want to put a number on it.

The threat of the bomb was enough. Dropping it once was overkill (pardon the pun), although I tend to give Truman the benefit of the doubt for doing what he felt he had to do to end the war.

But dropping it twice? Atrocious. No justification can make up for the damage. A truly awful, inhumane, inexcusable decision that the world can never live down.

 

I think the people you're citing were probably extremely optimistic about the Japanese government or its people and the ferocity with which they would have fought.

If the United States hadn't dropped the bomb -- and if it had implemented Operation Downfall -- the Japanese already anticipated the strategy for both Coronet and Olympic, and adjusted their defensive strategy accordingly. Couple that with a Japanese culture that most likely would have seen everyone including the elderly and the very young fighting against the invaders, and you have a recipe for a quagmire to end all quagmires.

There were also a lot of reports that indicated that even after Hiroshima was bombed, there was still a strong sentiment to fight the Allies. It took bombing Nagasaki before the war could end. Again, the death tolls would have been far, far greater had Truman not ordered the bombings.