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Independents, please speak up

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by ADifferentOkie, Feb 9, 2008.

  1. Yep.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Browne
     
  2. forever_town

    forever_town Well-Known Member

    I'm about as allergic to politics as you can get. It's one reason I want to go into sports and NOT into news. Having said that, I have no problems with political discussions on SportsJournalists.com. I'd have no problem if Webby created a Politics board.

    When I ran a forum, I explicitly prohibited discussing politics or religion, even in a general topics board. That would have forced a lot more babysitting than was already there.
     
  3. Inky_Wretch

    Inky_Wretch Well-Known Member

    Oops, we're talking about the wrong election.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Badnarik was the Libertarian nominee during Bush vs. Kerry.

    (Geez, I voted for him and can't remember his name. That's embarrassing.)
     
  4. I guess I didn't even think about that. Yes, Bush v. Kerry was 2004, not 2000.
    I'm smart.
     
  5. Batman

    Batman Well-Known Member

    As a wee lad, I swayed toward Democrats. I was too young to vote in the '92 election, but I'd have gone for Clinton if I could. By '96 I was heading toward the right. Didn't vote (forgot to get an absentee ballot in time) but would've gone for Dole because he reminded me of my grandfather. Silly, I know.
    In 2000, I was legitimately fired up for Bush. He had a good message (kind of like Obama now -- end the partisan bullshit, pull the country back together). He was a breath of fresh air. And there was something about McCain I didn't like. Kind of like Hillary, it just seemed like he was power hungry. Wanted to be president for the sake of being president, not to make the country a better place. I didn't trust him (and, to a degree, still don't).
    Voted for Bush again in 2004 because Kerry was a total douche. Wasn't thrilled about it, though.

    Now, by 2008, I lean right but am among the disillusioned masses. In the 90s, we had Republicans trying to torpedo everything Clinton did (sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes for the wrong reasons). Clinton reeked of scandal, but the Republicans made the impeachment into an overblown mess.
    Over the last eight years, Democrats have done the same thing. Everything Bush tries to do is "criminal" or "gutting the constitution." The close election in 2000 ensured the Dems would never give him a chance. From day one, he was fighting an uphill battle. Then 9/11 happened and most of the stuff Bush ran on (largely domestic issues) necessarily went out the window to focus on terrorism.
    Unfortunately, after everything calmed down, the Dems didn't focus on that alongside him. They went right back to bashing him and undermining everything he did. The result has been eight years of increasingly uninspired leadership. Since 9/11, about the only times I've gotten fired up by a Bush speech is when he gets pissed off and pushes back a little.
    As time has passed, I'm increasingly disappointed in both parties. Everything Bush promoted on his domestic platform in 2000 has either been ignored or flat-out changed. He's spending us into third-world status at an alarming rate (something that's not likely to change with a Democrat in the White House, especially if it's Hillary; Iraq spending will just be replaced by health care spending). Republicans seem to have their eye on the ball a little more as far as security. Democrats are still hellbent on politics.

    So, in 2008, I'm not committed to either party. I don't want to vote for McCain (although he did say some good things in his CPAC speech the other day), and would rather cut off a finger than see Hillary as president. Republicans hate her so much, and she's spiteful enough, that we'd just have the same back-and-forth bullshit we've had for the last 15 or so years -- from both sides.
    If Obama doesn't come across as a total doofus in his policy matters, I could see myself voting for him. Like someone else said, he's at least a breath of fresh air and a chance to move forward.
    Or, I might just vote Libertarian as a protest. Or maybe do a write-in for Bugs Bunny.
     
  6. Chi City 81

    Chi City 81 Guest

    Did I seriously just read you blame the last eight years on Democrats? Seriously?
     
  7. Batman

    Batman Well-Known Member

    I blame the last eight years on both parties and circumstances. Hence, why I'm craving a decent third-party candidate. In terms of effectiveness, Clinton and Bush were about equal. Clinton just benefited from better timing (no major foreign crisis during his tenure, coming in at the tail end of a recession, no Soviet Union to worry about for the first time in 50 years, to name a few things).

    The seeds of the 2000s and Bush's largely flaccid presidency were planted in the 90s, when Republicans demonized Clinton for every little misstep. Clinton was just bad enough in his personal life to give some credence to their claims.
    In 2000, the Dems were so pissed off about the previous eight years that they were hellbent on ensuring no Republican president would get much done. The close, controversial election galvanized them even more. Bush was just inept enough to allow the Dems to make him look stupid and cast doubt on anything he wanted to try and get through Congress. Then 9/11 happened and the entire focus of Bush's presidency had to change. Domestic issues were out, and keeping the country safe from terrorism was in.

    You can argue all day long about whether the anti-terrorism moves have been right or wrong, whether they're unconstitutional or not. And I'm sure there's folks around here that'd be happy to do that. My point was, we had a Democratic presidency full of bickering and undermining. Now we've had a Republican presidency full of the same thing. It's made me weary of it all and caused me to drift away from either party.
     
  8. Clinton was impeached over a blowjob. Bush has faced no actual legal issues despite lying to take us to war and subverting the Constitution time after time.
    Forgive me if I don't believe your comparison holds water.
     
  9. Hustle

    Hustle Guest

    DanO touched on this in his post, but I have to say I'm deeply troubled by how the CPAC meeting went down earlier in the week - the one where Romney announced he was bailing and McCain was booed by half the place because he's not conservative enough.

    From a most general perspective, I believe I fall somewhere left of McCain, more centrist/moderate. So I can only imagine what kind of reception I'd have gotten at CPAC. Some are threatening to go with Clinton; I read somewhere of talk of an independent entry - the latter particularly laughable, since it sinks any chance the GOP has. Swing votes swing the election, but only under the assumption the base isn't fractured.

    That all says to me that me and my vote are not welcome in the GOP. They don't like McCain, why the hell would they like me?

    Those further to the right have had a president for seven years now. A lot of folks have a lot of problems with where the country is at right now. As far as I'm concerned, they've had their say.

    I'd like to think McCain steps closer to the middle, however slight. But half the party isn't down with that. And, as someone more centrist, I'm tired being marginalized by the far right wing. My vote should matter to you; it doesn't seem like it does.

    I'd be totally on board with anyone from the Democratic side if they didn't have their own serious downfalls. I see Clinton as divisive, and I'm still waiting for one major legislative accomplishment from Obama. At least he represents hope.

    Moreover, I get the feeling that once the Democratic nominee is decided, Clinton supporters will have no trouble getting behind Obama or vice versa - exactly what I'm not seeing from the GOP. I get the feeling the Democrats would welcome my vote.

    I may yet go for McCain if he's the best choice. But I'd prefer not to be affiliated with a party whose house in such disorder.
     
  10. Batman

    Batman Well-Known Member

    And there aren't a few Democrats out there that would love nothing more than to impeach Bush? Several have brought up the idea. There just aren't enough that would actually vote for it to make it happen, nor make it worth the time to try.
    Look, Bush has done plenty of screwing up on his own. But there's also a lot of tit-for-tat going on here between the two parties. It's revolting on a lot of levels, and a reason I'm not a big fan of either at the current moment.
     
  11. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    His point ... is that Clinton was impeached over a blow job. If Bush was impeached, it'd be for taking us to war on a fucking lie.

    It's not a comparable situation.
     
  12. RedSmithClone

    RedSmithClone Active Member

    Well I have always considered myself an Indy who leans right. I am very disappointed in both sides of the aisle.

    Yes, I realize I disagree with a lot of you lefty leaning socialists, but at the same time I do believe in some of those programs. I just disagree on how to get there. I don't believe in just handing people something for nothing and I don't believe in the government bailing people out when they make stupid decisions on home loans or car loans or spreading their legs to some idiot they just met at the bar or in being the idiot who drops his seed into a drunken wench and expects to get off scott free in more ways than one.
    Do I believe in welfare - yes. Do I believe that people should be cut off at a certain point when they start having more babies to get more money - yes. Do I believe they should have to do some sort of work to earn some of that money - yes.

    I'm rambling and I apologize. It's late and I need to go home and sleep.

    Of course I'm going home to a flooded basement because our pipes burst while I was working. So maybe I should just go directly to city hall with my hand out waiting for a free gift like everyone else to take care of my responsibility.

    While I won't mind Obama as president because he doesn't irritate me like the nails on a chalkboard Hillary, neither one is my cup of tea. More entitlements for all and for all a good night.
     
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