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History Will Beat Them With A Stick

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Fenian_Bastard, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. Joel_Goodsen

    Joel_Goodsen Member

    A lot of people from nonmilitary families apparently sign on to this site.

    I try and stay clear of these political threads because I don't feel that strongly about most issues to argue about them (and because I'm a moderate and they seem to be dominated by the lunatic fringe on both sides) but I do think that torture of prisoner's of war for the purpose of gaining intelligence is a necessary evil and I can't quite understand why that is so hard for so many people to understand.

    If gaining military intelligence is the ultimate goal then, in a war, everything would seem to be fair game. I understand we are a civilized people -- but what part of war is really civilized to begin with? And how can you be civilized when you are fighting against people who don't live by the same set of rules?

    I keep hearing about rules of war we must follow but do you really think if our opponents in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan had the methods and means and money, say, to develop biological weapons, they'd hold back?

    I don't know how I feel truly about this war in Iraq -- some days I think it is just and necessary -- others I think it is a colossal waste of money and resources and a senseless loss of lives. However, I never waver from this principle -- if we are going to engage in war -- let's do everything in our power to win it.

    I have read thread after thread on these forums about this waterboarding issue and the common theme seems to be -- if we don't treat their prisoner's right, they won't treat ours right and we're supposed to be above that. That's a lot of Bullshit -- we aren't dealing with sane and rational people and they don't play by the same rules we are always trying to be bound by -- and more importantly we are trying to win a war, it is life or death, freedom and security -- it should be by any means necessary.

    I'm not saying the U.S. is always right, but I certainly would like to think that our government was committed to doing everything possible to win -- and thus end -- this war and these torture tactics -- used within reasonable parameters -- are a part of that.
     
  2. zeke12

    zeke12 Guest

    We have to torture people to stop torturing people?

    Back to the drawing board, Joel.
     
  3. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    Perhaps in all your military expertise you could give us a hint of how torture, cruelty and poor treatment of prisoners has helped our cause and made America stronger and less of a target for terrorists?
     
  4. Joel_Goodsen

    Joel_Goodsen Member

    I'm not sure what you are saying?

    We have to torture people to gain intelligence. And hopefully in gaining intelligence we will save the lives of U.S. Troups and hopefully in gaining intelligence we will be better equipped to get to the heart of the matter and end the war.
     
  5. I'm going to go out for a smoke. When I come back, I expect this issue to be resolved.
     
  6. zeke12

    zeke12 Guest

    I'm saying your logic is horribly flawed.

    And this:

    Is simply not true.
     
  7. JR

    JR Well-Known Member

    Well, if you don't mind your government being complcit in or advocating war crimes, I guess there's nothing wrong with torture.

    Even from a practical point of view, most interrogation experts (and that does not include Fredo or His Band of Thugs) will tell you it doesn't work.

    BTW, Jack Bauer isn't a real CIA operative.
     
  8. Joel_Goodsen

    Joel_Goodsen Member

    Nobody said a word about cruelty and poor treatment of prisoners.

    I am talking about specific tactics of interrogation of prisoners of war, nothing more and nothing less.

    Further, I'd like you to prove to me that waterboarding is the reason that the rest of the world and particularly those in the Middle East hate us so much.

    I mean, are you saying that Bin Laden's decision to bomb NYC and DC on 9/11 was in reaction to a waterboarding incident we haven't read about?
     
  9. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    I think what Fudgie is saying is that he is not against a little torture in extreme cases and when we have deniability, but he doesn't want it to become U.S. policy.
     
  10. zeke12

    zeke12 Guest

    This is patently ridiculous.
     
  11. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    We are not in Iraq trying to eradicate Iraqis. We are in Iraq setting up a new government with our blessing.

    When we do things that turn people away from the United States in disgust and make enemies, we are not helping our cause.
     
  12. Joel_Goodsen

    Joel_Goodsen Member

    It absolutely is true. That is the motivation behind it.

    And again -- we're talking about war crimes and law and order but we're dealing with a people group who don't live by the same rules we are bound by.

    You cannot try and take the moral high ground when you are at war with a country that has no base of morals. These kinds of wars are not always won with bombs and planes and diplomacy.
     
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