Greatest Red Sox hitter of all-time

Knew I'd stir up someone. As I said, great hitter, still a lousy player. Out of the batter's box you'd never ever say to a kid "play that way."
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Wow.

I know you. You're one of the 1,001 sportswriters that baseball fans like me---SABR members, Baseball Prospectus readers, etc.---have grown increasingly frustrated with since the Internet boomed. You say things just to rile people up. Is that some sort of justification for saying stupid shit? You call a player like Manny---at the very least the second-best right-handed hitter of the last 15 years---lousy.

Why? Because you wouldn't look at your son and say "play that way!"? I'd want my son to hit 501 home runs, that's for sure.

You, Bob Costas and Tim McCarver should go sit in a corner somewhere and leave the rest of us alone as you long for yesteryear, when "the game was played the right way!"

According to your world view, I suppose David Eckstein is a better ballplayer than Manny, eh?

 

Jimmie Foxx, his numbers are better than Manny's across the board.

To all that voted for Yaz, are you kidding?

 

Not for nothing, but strictly as far as the "best right-handed hitter of the last 15 years" debate goes ... I'd put Manny ahead of A-Rod, who is far less disciplined than Ramirez. Yeah, I said that.

Also, there was a long period of time, and for good reason, when Yankees fans did NOT want to see Rodriguez up in a game-breaking situation. It was stupid and superstitious, and the idea of "clutch" is mostly in our minds ... but it was true nonetheless.

Strictly as a hitter, in the batter's box ... Manny > A-Rod. I digress.

Continue with your well-deserved beatdown of the previous statement.

 

Ruth has to be considered a better hitter than Williams, though that is not by much. When you look at what Williams did---only one season below .300 BA when walks were counted against your BA---he was the epitome of the Moneyball type of hitter, only 60 years before we heard of OPS. And when you think about the time that Williams missed to war---he missed 1943 (age 25), 1944 (age 26), 1945 (age 27), 1952 (age 34) and parts of 1951 (age 33) and 1953 (35). Say he hits 30 HR in 43, 44 and 45. He hits 45 additional home runs, let's say, if he doesn't fight in Korea. That's an additional 135 HR. I think that's being conservative, based on his career stats, but please let me know if I'm off-base here. If that's the case---135---then he finishes with 656 and he's fifth all-time in HR, rather than in the 20s.

 

Foxx was a better hitter than Manny. I'm not sure if I totally agree with it, but from what I know of Foxx---which is a decent amount, but not a ton---then I can reasonably agree with it. But Foxx had a much shorter career with the Sox, which I'm taking into account.

 

I've been watching Red Sox games since 1959, boy and (now old) man. I saw the tail end of Ted Williams's career and one of my earliest memories is witnessing him pinch-hit a homer against the Tigers. Even at that late stage, the swing was amazing.

After Teddy Ballgame it's between Manny and Foxx. (Yaz was steady and occasionally brilliant, but never as concussive as those two.) I've felt that, amazingly, Manny has actually more than earned the $160 million the Sox have paid him. I mean: No world championships in the 82 years before he arrived, two since. Others, like Schilling, Papi and Beckett, are equally important, but the one constant has been Manny. He's been staggeringly productive and clutch.

But then I looked at Foxx's numbers. What hit me is that 1938 season: .349/50/175. And he batted .360 the next year. Different times, of course, before the specialization of pitching, before black and Latin players etc. But also: only eight teams in a league, so fewer weak sisters for stats-padding. So, for me, Double X is second only to Williams.

 

I don't think you're off-base at all, although I think the numbers would not be that high if Williams had those extra 5 seasons of wear-and-tear on his body. Maybe he would have retired in 1957 instead of 1960, who knows. ... But I do think he would have been very, very close to 600 home runs, if not more.

As it was, when Williams retired ... he was third all-time in homers with 521 (behind Ruth's 714 and Foxx's 534). I think it's important to note where a guy was at the time, not just where he ends up nearly 50 years after he retired. The game's changed, and you're going to get passed. But being No. 3 all-time in 1960 tells you a lot more about Williams than the fact that he's T-16 now.

 

[quote author=In Exile]
Knew I'd stir up someone. As I said, great hitter, still a lousy player. Out of the batter's box you'd never ever say to a kid "play that way."
[/quote]
[quote author=Genclive_Oil]
Wow.

I know you. You're one of the 1,001 sportswriters that baseball fans like me---SABR members, Baseball Prospectus readers, etc.---have grown increasingly frustrated with since the Internet boomed. You say things just to rile people up. Is that some sort of justification for saying stupid shit? You call a player like Manny---at the very least the second-best right-handed hitter of the last 15 years---lousy.

Why? Because you wouldn't look at your son and say "play that way!"? I'd want my son to hit 501 home runs, that's for sure.

You, Bob Costas and Tim McCarver should go sit in a corner somewhere and leave the rest of us alone as you long for yesteryear, when "the game was played the right way!"

According to your world view, I suppose David Eckstein is a better ballplayer than Manny, eh?
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Well said. To call Manny Ramirez a lousy player is ridiculous. He's a hitting savant and not as bad of a fielder as people make him out to be. His work ethic is underrated -- I've heard many insiders claim that he meticulously works on his game and tries to improve while teammates are back at the hotel. He's charismatic, quirky, and refreshingly different than other superstar players. His personality once grated a great number of Sox fans (as well as his constant trade demands), but they've grown to accept and even love him more than I ever imagined. I think a turning point in Manny's career was becoming close friends with Kevin Millar, who helped Ramirez let his guard down a little and start having more fun. Tomase wrote a good piece in the Herald today about Manny.

Also looking at what Ramirez has done in the playoffs with the Sox - the 2004 World Series MVP, .409 BA with 10 RBIs in the 7-game series with Cleveland last season, 2 homers in 8 ABs against the Angles in the ALDS last season...I'd give the vote to him. But then again, I've only been watching the Sox since the early '90s and have only seen three of these players listed on a regular basis.

 

What I wouldn't give to have seen Williams play. Just once. That's awesome, Bru.

Pinch-hit HR against the Tigers? Was that at Fenway or Detroit? I can help you find that game, if you like ...

 

What came first? The chicken? Or Wade Boggs?

 

Sure Manny loves "being Manny," but from what I've heard, almost no one in that clubhouse works in the cages longer, lifts more, or even watches as much film (at least amongst the hitters, minus probably Varitek).

 

Aside from having more than 500 HR, 1,600 RBI and over a .300 BA, he sucked...