Greatest pitcher of all time?

For clarification's sake: In two years in Toronto, he was 41-13 with 563 strikeouts and ERAs of 2.03 and 2.65.

 

Ditto!!!!!!!!

 

Sirs, Madames,

In order: Grove, Koufax, Gibson.

YHS, etc

 

Bill James, in the original Historical Abstract in 1983-84, had a quite lengthy essay why the answer was in his opinion, Grove.

Cy Young pitched the first third of his career with a 50-foot pitching distance, and his entire career with a ball the consistency of a wet beanbag. And until the mid-teens and Twenties, most teams played in parks with 400-plus fence distances. Cy Young was certainly great, but his numbers can't be compared with anybody who has played since.

I'd go with:

1. Grove

2. Smoky Joe Williams, picked by many (certainly not all) as the greatest pitcher of the Negro Leagues, better than Satchel Paige.

3. Tom Seaver. Clemens without the roids.

 

I wish people would talk more about Pedro Martinez and Maddux more than Clemens when discussing the last 20 years.

Without juice, Roger isn't too much IMHO

 

He's at least the spring training standard against which all pitchers are judged.

And I would say Maddux is the best pitcher. Control pitcher who had lots of strikeouts. Had eye-popping seasons, but also had longevity and had decent seasons as his career wound down. And true, the Gold Glove for pitchers should be taken with a grain of salt, but it's another part of the picture. Now, as far as the pitcher batters feared most...Gibson and Randy Johnson in a virtual tie, with Ryne Duren (for different reasons) just behind.

And greatest Pythagorean pitcher if not for injury: Don Gullett

 

I was agreeing with you

 

While I pick Seaver as my greatest "modern" pitcher, Maddux and Martinez are certainly in the team picture (Ditto Gibson, Carlton, Koufax, Spahn, Feller, etc etc). You could pick any of those guys and not be far wrong.

And my own suspicion is the first 80 percent of Clemens' career was legit, which leaves him in a near statistical dead heat with Bob Gibson, which ain't too shabby.

If you take all the numbers at face value, Clemens is the clear pick. But you can't.

Just like Barry Bonds. Absent the roids, he probably ends up with 600-650 dingers. Willie Mays territory. But it wasn't good enough.

 

Assuming the mindset that the best pitcher of all time might be considered the hardest to hit (I don't believe this; it completely ignores the larger point of runs allowed and the big picture of wins), I was going to post a comparison of opponent's batting average against numbers. Ryan's was .204 for his career, which sounds pretty good to me, but that number doesn't appear to be readily available for the old-timers, like Walter Johnson. As a substitute, I went with best at keeping opponents off base, so I pulled up the all-time list of WHIP leaders.

Again, it's one stat and probably best used as simply part of an overall assessment, but it was interesting to look at.

Walter Johnson's is 1.061, good for eighth all-time
Among others we've thrown out in the discussion, Koufax is 1.106 (23rd), Cy Young's is 1.129, 37th all time; Greg Maddux 1.143 (53rd all-time), Bob Gibson 1.188 (110th) Nolan Ryan (1.247, 263rd all time) , Lefty Grove 1.278 (368th all time).

Your all-time leader? Addie Joss, who pitched for the Cleveland Naps from 1902 to 1910 and compiled a career WHIP of 0.968. He was perhaps the definitive "what might have been" pitcher, dying of tubercular meningitis at age 31.

 

WHIP is not a comparable statistic between the dead-ball era and afterward.

Pitchers before 1920 were working on the assumption it would probably require three hits in sequence to give up a run, so they were much less worried about giving up an early single. It was quite a common topic of conversation in interviews with pitchers of the era.

 

The problem with BA against is that it puts a spotlight on Ryan's best quality, and ignores his two worst (giving up BBs and allowing HRs).