Greatest Left Handed Pitcher In History

Fucking right.

 

If you're going to make a greatest-ever claim on someone based on a short span of years, those years had better be exponentially greater than anyone else in the argument. Those five seasons, while great, really great even, aren't exponentially better.

And Bobby Orr isn't the greatest hockey player ever because Gretzky was.

 

Thanks for doing the homework. That was a bit of an exaggeration on my part. He has a slightly higher ERA in three of the last four innings. I also saw that batters had a higher average against him later in the game. But we could break it down 50 different ways and never come to a clear conclusion.

Of course, these silly debates are absolutely pointless. You have 50 different baseball nerds measuring things with 50 different instruments. I believe a lot in statistics, but I think they have their limits. If you asked a hitter to name the best pitcher he'd ever faced, I don't think he'd measure that in terms of who was tough to hit over the longest period of time. He'd measure that in terms of who was simply the toughest to hit. Period. And that would probably be based on how great a guy was in his prime. It would be interesting to ask about 30-40 guys who faced Spahn, Carlton and Koufax in their prime for their opinion on the subject.

 

I'm all for using that as part of the information, but unfortunately, it's also how someone like Jim Rice makes the Hall of Fame. Because he was "feared." :

 

Jamie Moyer!!!!

 

So?

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Regression Analysis. Rice entered on the strength of his fame and his role in the game's mythology.

I agree that better metrics can and should be brought to bear on achievement, but how do you measure a player's place in the national imagination?

 

I propose it all rely upon Goose Gossage's personal opinion.

And Rice entered on the basis of hanging around long enough to pick up more sympathy votes. Unless you're arguing he was more feared in 2009 than his previous 14 years on the ballot.

 

greatest southpaw ever was my hebrew brother/brooklyn homeboy KOUFAX. not even close.

just like orr was the greatest defenseman these eyes have ever seen. you want gretzky as best hockey player in general? i'll let you have that one.

my criteria on career length is if you played long enough to be eligible for the hall of fame, you are eligible in this discussion. and, my friend, those "only five seasons" koufax had to end his career when an arthritic left elbow forced him out at his peak WERE exponentially better than any five-year stretch these other southpaws put together.

don't get me wrong -- as always in these barrom arguments, all of the southpaws discussed were "great." but imho, only a blind man would choose another southpaw in his prime to win one game over koufax.

those who argue otherwise clearly never saw koufax pitch. if you had, aren't blind and have a scintilla of baseball acumen you'd only argue for another to play devil's advocate. randy johnson couldn't sniff sandy's jock....

 

It would be indicative of nothing to ask Pete Rose for his opinion. But I think I know how he'd answer after poking around for a few minutes. Here is how Pete Rose fared against Koufax, Spahn and Carlton.

Against Spahn,

.531 batting average with 2 homers and 5 RBIs in 32 ABs from '63-'65

Against Koufax,

.175 batting average with 0 homers and 2 RBIs in 57 ABs from '64-'66

Against Carlton,

.263 batting average with 0 homers and 5 RBIs in 118 ABs from '65-'84

Of course, that's Spahn at the end of his career and Koufax right in his prime. And it's a larger sampling size for Carlton, who couldn't afford to pitch around Rose in the days before the two were teammates.

Heck, I decided to do Aaron and Mantle, too.

Aaron
Spahn: .333, 0 homers, 0 RBIs, 6 ABs
Koufax: .362, 7 homers, 16 RBIs, 116 ABs
Carlton: .342, 6 homers, 17 RBIs, 73 ABs

Mantle never faced any of the three in the regular season. So we can only use World Series stats.

Spahn: .150, 0 homers, 0 RBIs, 20 ABs
Koufax: .143, 1 homer, 1 RBI, 7 ABs

 

I'm not arguing anything but the silliness of the current argument.

And you didn't answer my question.

How do you measure a player's place in the national imagination?

 

After you typed that, I found this:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=robinja02:Jackie%20Robinson&st=career&compage=&age=

Poor Mike Greenwell got hosed!

 

This, right here. Koufax was just about unhittable for those five years you're referring to.