1. Welcome to SportsJournalists.com, a friendly forum for discussing all things sports and journalism.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register for a free account to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.
    • Fewer ads.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

goodell admits 'i didn't get it right'

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by shockey, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I'm not sure what you are telling me isn't true.

    I do know that the fourth amendment is the same as it always has been. Probable cause is a precondition for any arrest without a warrant.

    The things you are linking to. ... are related to the fact that many police departments have pro-arrest policies when it comes to domestic violence. It has partially been pressure from victims rights groups, and the idea that they are going to protect victims who may be intimidated.

    But that doesn't mean that the police can have a policy of "Someone is getting arrested" before they even investigate a crime and have probable cause to believe a crime was committed.

    Without probable cause that a crime has even been committed, the police can not make arrests. In practice, they may be arrest happy when it comes to domestic violence -- they make arrests they wouldn't have in the past (usually because they didn't want to deal with the paperwork). But if anyone had a hint of a policy of automatic arrests without probable cause anywhere, it would have a major fourth amendment lawsuit written all over it.
     
  2. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    There are mandatory arrest policies. They exist. It means that when the police show up at the house, they must arrest somebody. That's predetermined by the fact that they show up. I don't like it either. But it is fact.
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    It's not a matter of what you think I "like."

    There is no law anywhere that somehow trumped the fourth amendment. The police can not arrest people simply because they went to their house. They need a warrant or probable cause to believe a crime has been committed.

    Unless you are talking about North Korea and not the U.S.
     
  4. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    In practice, police do not leave the house without arresting someone. This is what Baron said. This is what Fatsis' book said. This is what happens.

    It's the truth. As to the trumping of the Fourth Amendment, I think we can agree there are probably quite a few cases that a libertarian would consider to be unreasonable searches and seizures -- such as, for instance, the government rifling through your email -- yet continue apace.

    But now we're really off on a tangent.
     
  5. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    Here's a New York Times op-ed from 2007:

    TWO decades ago, in an effort to curb domestic violence, states began passing “mandatory arrest” laws. Police officers responding to a call for help would no longer need to determine whether one person was truly violent or out of control; every time someone reported abuse, the police would simply be required to make an arrest.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/opinion/07iyengar.html?_r=0
     
  6. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Paul Simon says hello
     
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Here is the link to her actual paper: http://www.nber.org/papers/w13186.pdf

    Currently, fourteen states and the District of Columbia have passed mandatory arrest laws. These laws requires police to arrest a suspect without a warrant, if there is probable cause to suspect that an individual has committed some form of assault (either misdemeanor or felonious) against an intimate partner or family member. An additional eight states have recommended arrest laws, which specify arrest as a recommended but not required when confronted with probable cause that an intimidate partner or familial assault has occurred. States in both of these groups are reported in Table 1.

    All I said was that the police need probable cause to arrest anyone -- even in the case of domestic violence, where they are arrest happy. I am not sure why you thought that was wrong.
     
  8. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    I guess the idea is that the accuser, who could be a third party (ex-girlfriend, disgruntled neighbor perhaps?) would be the person who made the phone call, and that the phone call would be the probable cause.

    And with the league policy of punishment before conviction, coupled by the slowness of the justice system, all it would take is a couple of complaints in a short period of time for a player to be banned for life, possibly without even a conviction.
     
  9. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    So she didn't write that op-ed for the New York Times that plainly characterized the policy as an arrest being made every time someone reported abuse? Weird.

    In real life application, the police arrest someone every time there is an accusation or even a call. There is a whole cottage industry of writing about what a bad idea this law is, most of it coming from the cops and from people who advocate for the victims of domestic violence.

    It is possible that things happen in the world without you being sufficiently aware to author a 2,000-word opinion about them.
     
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Look at the bright side. If I call the police and tell them that you are beating your wife. ... There is no fourth-amendment-trumping law mandating that you automatically have to end up in a jail cell tonight, simply because I made a phone call and a squad car drove over to your house. ... the way you seemed to believe.
     
  11. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    Yeah, you're right, and everyone in the field who has written about it over the last 20 years is wrong. Always the way.

    Your belief that the Fourth Amendment is sacrosanct is cute.
     
  12. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    It has been pointed out that this is not true.

    Now, the accused may have the charges dismissed once the lack of evidence arises, but that takes time. Imagine someone who already has a strike against them gets accused again during the season.
    Are they permanently banned? Can they appeal? Can they play pending the resolution of the charges? Will there be screaming about how unfair it is for the accused to keep playing?
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page