Girls sue school system for allowing trans athletes to complete

I agree mental health support has to be improved.

I’m not sure I ageee that broadening the focus to as many Americans as possible is wise. A lot of privileged, otherwise-well-adjusted people out there suddenly troubled.

 

You just helped my argument. You just told me that it wasn't doctors and scientists pushing for these words to be used. You just told me it was advocacy groups pushing for the use of those words. That actually strengthens my argument that the terms are prejudicial. Thank you for that.

Perhaps your struggles with rhetoric highlight why you don't understand the argument being made by counsel for the cisgender female athletes. That would explain a lot.

My argument is not exclusionary because the transgender females are not peers of the cisgender females. This is true because in terms of biology, they are male. If LeBron James played in the WNBA, that would not be a supreme athlete emerging among his peers. Lisa Leslie was a superior biological female athlete.

If you want transgender females to compete among their peers, put them with other transgender females. It is not the fault of cisgender female athletes that there are not enough of them to make that work.

Your view undermines women's sports as a whole. It throws out the reason for its existence. It tramples on the rights of every cisgender female athlete. If we follow your reasoning, there is no reason for women's sports to exist. By your logic, they don't deserve a level playing field. That is what you are arguing for and I think you know it. You just know how bad that sounds.

We did this before. You ended up admitting that you don't care about doing right by cisgender female athletes because transgender girls have it so hard. Somehow, sports are responsible for fixing the way the world has mistreated them. Then you said we should do the same for athletes of either gender with depression. Sure, they deserve to be out there even if they aren't good enough to earn playing time. It will make them fell better. There is no line you won't cross to serve your argument. You proved that months ago. So let's skip a few steps and get to the end. You don't care about fairness. You don't care how many female athletes are cheated as long as your agenda is satisfied.

 

I would have rather played in the NFL than not, but I wasn't good enough. That is how sports are supposed to work.

Youth sports are not just developmental. For most athletes, that is as high as they go. They aren't developing skills for college, the Olympics or the pros. They are getting the most out of an athletic career that ends with their senior year of high school. They deserve a level playing field, too.

 

Again, there are cisgender athletes with depression who are crushed by not being able to compete the way they want to due to their physical limitations. I guess we should just hand them state championships rather than risk the damage it might do to them.

You are asking sports to do something that is not its role in society and you are willing to screw over a vast majority in the process. It is okay to be irrational about some things. I'm irrational about tobacco products. I think they should be banned immediately. I think people should go to jail for breaking the laws against selling them to minors. I'll stop before I get to the really ridiculous stuff. The difference is that I admit I'm irrational about the topic.

 

We don't get anywhere in this argument because you refuse to acknowledge that sciences tells us you're wrong with this statement. The moment they begin the transition process, their biology and structure changes.

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity - Science in the News

To what degree this impacts their physical ability, we don't know for sure. We're still learning.

But to transgender females biologically male or transgender males biologically female is simply inaccurate. The reality is far more complex.

 

The article you posted talks about gender. The issue is sex. Nobody can deny the physical advantages that a male who has gone thru puberty has, nor do the scientists in the link you gave.

 

Read the article.

Or read the abstract to this study.
Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased misclassification in transgender women

They both talk about specific biological comparisons.

The nutgraph of the Nature link: Our results support the hypothesis that brain structure in TW differs from brain structure of their biological sex (male) as well as their perceived gender (female). This finding substantiates evidence that TIs show specific brain-structural alterations leading to a different pattern of brain structure than CG-individuals.

Brain structure patterns are a biological sex characteristic that differs between men and women. And that's just one study. Earlier in the thread, when it first came up, I linked to a study that showed substantial physical differences in bone structure and muscle strength in transgender women compared to cisgender men, especially in trans youth.

Again, we don't know the full extent of all of this because the scientific studies are in the early stages. But early results are clear that it's not as simple as, "You were born a boy and you'll always retain those biological traits even if your gender changes."

 

So we don't really know how this affects their physical ability, but you want to declare a scientific conclusion because that would fit the way you want things to be.

Also, can't a person who just transitioned or someone who hasn't taken any hormones be considered a transgender female?

The science isn't there yet. Neither is the language. Yet you want to consider both settled in any case that it suits your needs.

 

And here you go again, trying to pass something off as scientific evidence when it is not. The studies just got started, but you can twist preliminary findings to fit what you want to say, so you use it. This is about brain structure, not physical attributes such as size, strength and speed.

 

I'm pretty sure that the official publication of the American College of Neuropsychopharmacology is a better determinant of what passes for a scientific study than you (or me, for that matter).

Also, from earlier in the thread:
“Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males,” says Dr. Eric Vilain, director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA. ....
Still, could Fox be stronger than the other women because she used to be a man? “She could be,” says Vilain. “But sports is made up of competitors who, by definition, have advantages for all kinds of genetics reasons. And no one complains about it.” A woman runner may be naturally faster, a woman basketball player taller, than her cohort. To exclude Fox because of her surgery, Vilain argues, would be discriminatory.
Should A Former Man Be Able To Fight Women? | TIME.com

Is the science 100% conclusive yet? No. But the studies so far certainly appear to demonstrate at the least that a transgender female does not retain all of the biological traits and potential physical advantages of a male.

As to your question of whether someone who just started transitioning or someone who hasn't taken hormones yet could be considered a transgender female, absolutely, yes. But, to keep the focus on youth sports, the majority have begun that process with at least puberty blockers. In the Connecticut case that has dominated this thread, both transgender teens are on hormone therapy.

 

I realize we are going in a circle here and am loathe to send you back to Google but the inherent advantages of a male going thru puberty and the resulting physical advantages can’t be dismissed.

The doctor you quoted waffling on the nature of other physical advantages is just searching for justification.

Ineloquent for sure but she’s not wrong.

“She can try hormones, chop her pecker off, but it’s still the same bone structure a man has,” UFC star Ronda Rousey told the New York Post. “It’s an advantage. I don’t think it’s fair.”

 

I'm going to take the word of doctors and scientists over Ronda Rousey.

I'll only add that many trans youth do not fully go through puberty. They start on puberty blockers for a reason. So the development process is very different than what we're familiar with and something we are still learning about.

Since each individual case is different, until we have more studies done documenting physical comparisons between trans youth and cisgender youth, I cannot reconcile any practice that excludes someone from playing youth sports with the gender they identity with.

Youth sports, including varsity high school sports, should be about participation in a healthy activity, playing with friends, learning teamwork, and sport specific skill development. Allowing trans youth to play with the gender they identify with promotes inclusion and does not exclude anyone from the opportunity to play with their friends.

Might it change who wins? In some cases. But that doesn't matter to me.

I realize that may not be popular. I'm also the guy who wouldn't cut anyone who tried out for a team, who would utilize pinch runners and defensive replacements like crazy in baseball/softball so more kids could get a smidge of playing time, and who would probably sub out my starters in a blowout sooner than anyone else.

I think high school sports are too obsessed with winning at any cost, and I admit that perspective is likely coloring my opinion here as well.