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Girls sue school system for allowing trans athletes to complete

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by hondo, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Craven? Please kindly stick that where the sun does not shine. Despite your ridiculous claims, I have not insulted you in this discussion, yet you are now insulting me. You want the gloves off? You've got it.

    I'm not talking about winning. I'm talking about fairness. I'm sorry you are incapable of understanding the difference.

    Do you really think getting a spot on the team without getting to play is going to help the kid with depression feel better? You're kidding yourself. Of course, that isn't an issue for most male-to-female transsexual athletes because if they get to compete with the girls, they have that built-in advantage.

    For those few incidents of people being gracious, most likely because they don't feel they have much choice in that situation, you also have have many more competitors publicly or quietly hurt and upset because their opportunity to compete fairly was stolen from them. That is exactly what you are proposing, stealing fair opportunities from very large groups of girls and women to allow a smaller group to compete with an unfair advantage.

    You clearly have little concept of the importance of the level playing field to all sports. You clearly don't understand how long women had to do without the far opportunity to compete and just how much that competition has done for them. You clearly don't care about the integrity of women's sports. That you think you have some sort of moral high ground here shows just how truly lost you are on this one.
     
  2. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    You keep latching on to this, but the simple fact is the majority of male-to-female transgender athletes do have the physical advantages that come with being biological males. The intent may not be to cheat, but that is absolutely the effect in those cases.
     
  3. SoloFlyer

    SoloFlyer Well-Known Member

  4. SoloFlyer

    SoloFlyer Well-Known Member

    Experts in this say that it is far more varied than you seem to be willing to admit. Doctors say there are too many variables, as I've said from the beginning, for your statement to be accurate.

    Biological advantage can also vary, according to Dr. Myron Genel, a Yale professor emeritus of pediatric endocrinology and a consultant to the International Olympic Committee’s Medical Commission on issues relating to gender identity in elite athletic competition. Because young males, in general, mature later than females, a natal male (a person born a biological male) may not necessarily have an advantage over a natal female depending on the age of the person and their development.

    “There is no such thing as a level playing field,” Genel said. “Athletes succeed because in part of special traits they have or traits that others may not share. Or they had the good fortune of having good training facilities and a good training program.

    “You cannot necessarily assume any one of these girls is succeeding because they have not fully converted their gender. I say this without knowing these kids but it may have nothing to do with it.”

    Coaches, Parents Question Policy For High School Transgender Athletes

    As an aside, the Courant's coverage on this issue has been nuanced and superb.
     
  5. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    I’m out. Posting different Google searches at each other won’t change anyone’s mind.

    Stunned that anyone would think a male going thru puberty doesn’t impart a physical advantage.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  6. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Now you are being as ridiculous as people who claim climate change isn't real based on today's weather.

    Nobody said male-to-female transgender athletes are unbeatable. Is there any chance you will start arguing with some intellectual integrity at some point in this discussion?
     
  7. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Your entire argument attacks the very heart of women's athletics, but every woman ever validated by the opportunities that created in the past, present and future just doesn't matter to you.

    You can muddy the waters with all the foolishness you like. Biological males are bigger, stronger and faster than biological females. That is the entire reason women's and girls' sports exist. You would happily work to undermine all that, throw out everything sports are supposed to be, because you want athletics to do something it isn't meant to do.
     
  8. SoloFlyer

    SoloFlyer Well-Known Member

    Well, when a young woman publicly states that she doesn't have an issue, I tend to listen. From the same article in the post you're responding to:

    RHAM sprinter Bridget Lalonde finished third in the 100-meter dash just behind Yearwood at the State Open Monday and didn’t take issue with transgender runners.

    “To be honest, I think it’s great they get a chance to compete and as long as they’re happy, I guess there’s not that much I can do,” she said. “The rules are the rules. The only competition is the clock because you can only run as fast as you can run.”
    ----
    The lawsuit bringers think it's unfair. Other competitors are fine with it. It's almost like there are multiple perspectives here, that the issue is so nuanced and complex that a simple, blanket statement just doesn't work

    That has been the crux of my argument the entire time. You keep wanting to shove this back into a clear right/wrong and you keep ignoring the experts and doctors who say that this is far more complex than a binary system allows.

    Oh, and I haven't responded to your comments about me not caring about the integrity of women's sports because I find them so patently absurd and hyperbolic that they're not with my time.

    I'm not going to out myself, but I'm plenty comfortable with the impact of the work I've done in real life to document the obstacles women have overcome in sports. I've devoted thousands upon thousands of words to the subject in a variety of ways, and in turn I've been recognized for that work.

    If you're not going to bother reading the explanations and opinions of experts in the field, if you're going to insist that this a black/white issue with a simple solution of barring transgender women from competing as women, then we're done.

    I'm plenty comfortable in the work I've done to not be bothered by your attempts to characterize me as a misogynistic villain.
     
  9. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    You’re cherry picking comments. What was it? Who cares what a random coach and Martina Navratilova say?

    The backlash against those who don’t embrace the transgendered athletes is large and they get shouted down as transphobic real quick, just as Navratilova has.

    Look at the backlash against the cyclists who spoke up against Rachel McKinnon, they were branded as hateful bigots.

    Meanwhile you claim some tepid remarks of acceptance by a high school athlete is proof that everything is ok.
     
  10. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    It was a few young women, and it is a hell of a lot easier to say the nice thing like that than to speak out against unfair practice. They are kids. How many do you actually expect to be ready to say something that isn't nice because it's true? Or are you really so naive that you don't understand that component of the public comments? You really think it is just the ones bringing the lawsuit? You may be even more clueless than I thought. (I know. I'm not being nice. You wanted the gloves off. You got them off.)

    You haven't responded to my comments about you not caring about the integrity of women's athletics because you can't. I'm right. You don't. That is why you are arguing so strongly for undermining them. You have stated over and over again that fairness and winning don't matter because it is just high school sports. Of course, it is only affecting girls sports, but you don't care about that.

    I read what some experts wrote. I've also got decades of experience myself and many others showing just how big the advantage is for biological males competing against biological females.

    You're not a villain, but the misogynist seems to fit. You're just so busy weeping over one group that you are willing to trample another to help them.
     
  11. SoloFlyer

    SoloFlyer Well-Known Member

    Are NARAL Pro-Choice Connecticut, the New Haven Pride Center, and Planned Parenthood of Southern New England misogynistic?

    Because this is what they had to say about the Connecticut case:

    “Transgender girls are girls and transgender women are women,” the statement said. “They are not and should not be referred to as boys or men, biological or otherwise.”

    “We speak from expertise when we say that nondiscrimination protections for transgender people – including women and girls who are transgender – advance women’s equality and well-being.”

    What about Kate Farrar, executive director of the Connecticut Women’s Education and Legal Fund?

    “The fundamental issues behind Title IX and a lot of our gender equity fights are in recognition of [the need for] equal access,” Farrar added. “When we actually acknowledge transgender girls as girls according to their gender identity, we cannot deny them access. This is the whole point of why we have Title IX. Why we fought for gender equity.”

    “It really is a human rights issue at the heart of these opportunities for girls in our schools.”

    Both of their statements are found here, alongside those who disagree with them.

    Best of 2019: Transgender sports debate polarizes women's advocates

    And ultimately, I find myself agreeing with the woman quoted in the story's kicker.

    Robin McHaelen, executive director of True Colors, a non-profit group that advocates for LGBTQ youth, said that while she understands the issue of fairness raised by the cisgender girls, she ultimately sides with the transgender athletes, who “have already experienced so much oppression and hostility.

    “The honest to God truth is I don’t know what’s fair, but I know that my role is to protect and care for the most marginalized of the kids we serve and I think that transgender girls, especially girls of color, fit that category,” McHaelen said. “The reality is when you are talking about a civil rights issue, one person’s discomfort does not override another person’s civil rights.”

    She said it better than I ever could, so I'll let that be my final statement on the matter.
     
  12. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Bailing while you are behind the smartest thing you've done this entire thread, and admitting someone said something far better than you could was your first real stab at honesty.

    Again, you've got people pushing a certain agenda and those are the only people you want to listen to. That, Solo, is why you fail.

    That is especially true of the final quote, coming from someone whose very job is to put the good of the LGBTQ community ahead of all others.

    Of course, your honesty was limited at best. You continued to cherry pick comments, ignoring ones like this one.

    “I don’t know of a woman athlete who doesn’t want trans girls to be treated fairly,” said Donna Lopiano, who led the Women’s Sports Foundation for 15 years and now runs a Shelton-based consulting firm that works with clients on Title IX and other sports management issues. “But the cost of treating her fairly should not come at the cost of discriminating against a biologically-female-at birth woman.”

    You also missed this one from Duke University Law Professor Doriane Coleman.

    “This isn’t bathrooms. Sports are different,” Coleman said. “It’s wrong to think of the OCR complaint as reflecting a right wing or conservative Christian position. It’s not. People across the political spectrum care about ensuring that girls and women have an equal chance at the goods that flow from sport. The sports exception in Title IX, which allows schools to have separate teams for males and females, is about creating and protecting the space where this can happen.”

    Here's one more, a history lesson you seem to need.

    Title IX was passed 47 years ago to ensure an equal education for girls, but included a “carve out” allowing separate sports programs for girls because of the clear biological advantage that males have over females in athletics.

    “It was the notion that there are distinct biological differences in sex that are immutable,” Lopiano said, “namely after puberty, the effect of testosterone on males … Everybody agreed that hey, if you have boys and girls competing after puberty, who would be more likely to get on a team? Who would win? It would be men. There would be very few women.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
    Iron_chet likes this.
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