Fred McGriff: Hall of Famer?

amraeder · Aug 6, 2013

So, Dick, what's your case for Fred? Lay it all out. I'm interested in reading it.

Drip · Aug 6, 2013

Let me put it this way. McGriff should not get in before Rafael Palmeiro.

outofplace · Aug 6, 2013

Dick Whitman said:

Moderator1 said:

From Wiki, so take that into consideration: He received 21.5% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. In 2011, McGriff received 104 votes (17.9 percent of total votes cast) for induction.

I don't see him making that big of a jump and don't think he should. Heck, I was around some of those Braves teams. Hell of a player, decent to deal with in some of my limited exposure. But don't you have to WIN a few MVPs? We need to raise standards, not lower them.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm speaking to a larger question: Considering how many of a guy like McGriff's peers are tainted by steroids, does someone like McGriff deserve consideration? I know you don't care about this, but he has a higher OPS-plus than Tony Gwynn.

I think the biggest thing that hurts McGriff is that he played for so many teams that he feels like a journeyman.

Also, I think he's interesting because he barely missed a couple milestones: 493 home runs, 2,490 hits. If that's 500 HRs and 2,500 hits, what are his vote totals like? I get that 2,500 isn't the coup de grace, but it's a nice round number that people like.

And people do care about that stuff. The other day, I heard a voter saying he needs Ichiro to get to 3,000 hits.
Click to expand...

How do you know McGriff was clean? That's the big problem with voters putting so much weight into who they think used PEDs and who they think did not. Far too often, they are going on information that is incomplete at best.

Moderator1 · Aug 6, 2013

Dick Whitman said:

Moderator1 said:

From Wiki, so take that into consideration: He received 21.5% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. In 2011, McGriff received 104 votes (17.9 percent of total votes cast) for induction.

I don't see him making that big of a jump and don't think he should. Heck, I was around some of those Braves teams. Hell of a player, decent to deal with in some of my limited exposure. But don't you have to WIN a few MVPs? We need to raise standards, not lower them.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm speaking to a larger question: Considering how many of a guy like McGriff's peers are tainted by steroids, does someone like McGriff deserve consideration? I know you don't care about this, but he has a higher OPS-plus than Tony Gwynn.

I think the biggest thing that hurts McGriff is that he played for so many teams that he feels like a journeyman.

Also, I think he's interesting because he barely missed a couple milestones: 493 home runs, 2,490 hits. If that's 500 HRs and 2,500 hits, what are his vote totals like? I get that 2,500 isn't the coup de grace, but it's a nice round number that people like.

And people do care about that stuff. The other day, I heard a voter saying he needs Ichiro to get to 3,000 hits.
Click to expand...

I get it, I just like to rag you about Hall threads because, you know, you take it so well!

I don't know how to quantify all that, I just don't. I was asked about it on a radio show today and I said I didn't know what to believe.

That said, I don't think he was juicing. Would seven more HRs have made a difference in some people's minds? Perhaps. Not to me.

Dick Whitman · Aug 6, 2013

outofplace said:

Dick Whitman said:

Moderator1 said:

From Wiki, so take that into consideration: He received 21.5% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. In 2011, McGriff received 104 votes (17.9 percent of total votes cast) for induction.

I don't see him making that big of a jump and don't think he should. Heck, I was around some of those Braves teams. Hell of a player, decent to deal with in some of my limited exposure. But don't you have to WIN a few MVPs? We need to raise standards, not lower them.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm speaking to a larger question: Considering how many of a guy like McGriff's peers are tainted by steroids, does someone like McGriff deserve consideration? I know you don't care about this, but he has a higher OPS-plus than Tony Gwynn.

I think the biggest thing that hurts McGriff is that he played for so many teams that he feels like a journeyman.

Also, I think he's interesting because he barely missed a couple milestones: 493 home runs, 2,490 hits. If that's 500 HRs and 2,500 hits, what are his vote totals like? I get that 2,500 isn't the coup de grace, but it's a nice round number that people like.

And people do care about that stuff. The other day, I heard a voter saying he needs Ichiro to get to 3,000 hits.
Click to expand...

How do you know McGriff was clean? That's the big problem with voters putting so much weight into who they think used PEDs and who they think did not. Far too often, they are going on information that is incomplete at best.
Click to expand...

I don't. That's a fair point. But I'm just the guy who is ignorant about baseball. So give that whatever weight it deserves.

Dick Whitman · Aug 6, 2013

Moderator1 said:

Dick Whitman said:

Moderator1 said:

From Wiki, so take that into consideration: He received 21.5% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. In 2011, McGriff received 104 votes (17.9 percent of total votes cast) for induction.

I don't see him making that big of a jump and don't think he should. Heck, I was around some of those Braves teams. Hell of a player, decent to deal with in some of my limited exposure. But don't you have to WIN a few MVPs? We need to raise standards, not lower them.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm speaking to a larger question: Considering how many of a guy like McGriff's peers are tainted by steroids, does someone like McGriff deserve consideration? I know you don't care about this, but he has a higher OPS-plus than Tony Gwynn.

I think the biggest thing that hurts McGriff is that he played for so many teams that he feels like a journeyman.

Also, I think he's interesting because he barely missed a couple milestones: 493 home runs, 2,490 hits. If that's 500 HRs and 2,500 hits, what are his vote totals like? I get that 2,500 isn't the coup de grace, but it's a nice round number that people like.

And people do care about that stuff. The other day, I heard a voter saying he needs Ichiro to get to 3,000 hits.
Click to expand...

I get it, I just like to rag you about Hall threads because, you know, you take it so well!
Click to expand...

I'd take it better if I didn't know that you had the power to lock them - and have exercised it.

Moderator1 · Aug 6, 2013

Is this one locked? Or have I tried to contribute to the discussion? Or were you just looking for a way to give me shit?

Dick Whitman · Aug 6, 2013

Moderator1 said:

Is this one locked? Or have I tried to contribute to the discussion? Or were you just looking for a way to give me shit?
Click to expand...

No, no. Not at all. I was just explaining why I vehemently stand up for a Hall of Fame thread - so that you don't think it's a farce and lock it.

Mizzougrad96 · Aug 6, 2013

I don't see it happening...

My argument for him would be, if McGriff put those numbers up without juicing, they seem a lot more impressive than they do now, when compared to the Palmeiros and the Sosas and who put up crazy numbers.

I think most people think Bagwell will eventually get in. McGriff has more HR and more RBI, but Bagwell has a MVP and has a few "great" seasons, while McGriff has more "very, very good" seasons.

The problem is, I think most people think Bagwell juiced and I don't think people think that about McGriff.

Moderator1 · Aug 6, 2013

Dick Whitman said:

Moderator1 said:

Is this one locked? Or have I tried to contribute to the discussion? Or were you just looking for a way to give me shit?
Click to expand...

No, no. Not at all. I was just explaining why I vehemently stand up for a Hall of Fame thread - so that you don't think it's a farce and lock it.
Click to expand...

We are so past that point - it is called moving on. There was a stretch when we had way too many of these things. Ages ago. Hasn't been a problem in a while.

Drip · Aug 6, 2013

Mizzougrad96 said:

I don't see it happening...

My argument for him would be, if McGriff put those numbers up without juicing, they seem a lot more impressive than they do now, when compared to the Palmeiros and the Sosas and who put up crazy numbers.

I think most people think Bagwell will eventually get in. McGriff has more HR and more RBI, but Bagwell has a MVP and has a few "great" seasons, while McGriff has more "very, very good" seasons.

The problem is, I think most people think Bagwell juiced and I don't think people think that about McGriff.
Click to expand...

If either Bagwell or McGriff gets in before Palmiero I'll...

Dick Whitman · Aug 6, 2013

Moderator1 said:

Dick Whitman said:

Moderator1 said:

Is this one locked? Or have I tried to contribute to the discussion? Or were you just looking for a way to give me shit?
Click to expand...

No, no. Not at all. I was just explaining why I vehemently stand up for a Hall of Fame thread - so that you don't think it's a farce and lock it.
Click to expand...

We are so past that point - it is called moving on. There was a stretch when we had way too many of these things. Ages ago. Hasn't been a problem in a while.
Click to expand...

Cool.

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Fred McGriff: Hall of Famer?

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Fred McGriff: Hall of Famer?

amraeder Well-Known Member

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