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Finally, Christians are beginning to see the problems ...

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by dog428, Jul 31, 2006.

  1. zeke12

    zeke12 Guest

    Maybe you're right.

    Or maybe it's a martyr complex.

    Or Maybe it's a bit of both.
  2. JRoyal

    JRoyal Well-Known Member

    OK, since I'm gonna guess I'm the only one who bothered to try to find this guy's sermons and listen to what he had to say, I'll share a little.

    He doesn't say in his sermon on abortion (the only one I listened to so far) that it is petty, but he does say the way we've defined the battle is off. And he attacks the rhetoric on both sides, saying the two sides fight each other with their slogans instead of trying to work together to decrease the number of abortions to the lowers number possible. He points out there has been disagreement through all time as to when life begins, even in the church, pointing out St. Augustine said life began in the second trimester, St. Thomas at birth (based on Scripture about life being breathed into Adam), and traditionalists and others at conception. So religiously, we can never come to a firm conclusion on it. Sure, we can as individuals, but as a church, it's not likely.

    A quote from him that applies to abortion and many other topics: "The problem is that in the kingdom of the world most of the conflicts are unresolveable if you mean by resolveable things that good-hearted, well-intentioned people can agree on. ... The best solutions are always ambiguous."

    He also makes a big deal of using "power under," the power of Christ, as opposed to "power over," the power of the world. When we argue for laws based on a stringent relgiious idea that reasonable, intelligent people can disagree on (in this case, when life begins), we're trying to impose our views on others through power over. What we should be doing is using power under to reach out to others and help them, as Christ would have. For example, when it comes to abortion, we shouldn't say, YOU do this or don't do this or you ought to do this. We say WE need to do this, and try to make it viable, with emotional support, financial support, and whatever else, for her to carry the baby full term. He shares a story of a woman who votes pro-choice, but when approached by a teen who was considering abortion, she ministerred to her, showing her there were options for her to carry the baby if she decided to, that there was another way. It would be hard, but there were people who would help and support her. And even if she chose abortion, there would still be people there for her.

    He also says that too many people pick a "pet sin" -- homosexuality, abortion, whatever -- and use that to condemn others instead of realizing we're all sinners. Instead of reaching out to help others, we attack. Another quote: "What we're not going to do is pick one little pet sin that most of us don't committ and use power over on that little pet sin so we all can feel righteous about it. What we aren't going to do is go looking for specks when we know we have 2-by-4s in our own eyes. "

    So basically, there's this idea that instead of sitting back and saying how bad others are and using that to try to regulate behavior, he encourages reaching out, helping others. That doesn't mean necessarily converting them, though I'm sure he would say bringing someone to Christ would be great. But even if we don't, just by helping someone, we're showing them what Christians should be, and that idea doesn't jibe with forcing our views on them through laws.
  3. JRoyal

    JRoyal Well-Known Member

    And zeke, I'm pretty darned liberal, but I've noticed this on some threads. And I don't buy into the "Oh, we're Christians and persecuted because of it" crap. I really think MM has a point. There are a lot of people on this board who are quick to make jokes and attacks toward Christianity that wouldn't go over well with something else.
  4. dog428

    dog428 Active Member

    That comment was made by me. And being a Christian, I felt as though I had the right to make it.

    Lemme check ... yep, I do.

    So, let me do it again: Finally, proof that not all Christians are dumb enough to be led blindly down a terrible path because a crooked politician pushed the right buttons.
  5. JackS

    JackS Member

    Thanks for that summary, JRoyal. Assuming it's an accurate recap of his position, it doesn't seem very controversial. I wouldn't have any big beefs, anyway. Of course, I still want to know how the "petty" passage originated and whether or not it's accurate.
  6. HC

    HC Well-Known Member

    Thank for the recap JRoyal.  I agree with a lot of what he has to say.  It's easy to tell people "you shouldn't do that" but it doesn't solve anything.  Offer them options so they feel that they have a choice. Too often the same people I talk to that want to outlaw abortion are also against, for example, welfare or sex education.  These seem to me conflicting opinions.  "We're not going to teach you how to prevent pregnancy and, if you do become pregnant, you must have the child but we won't help you raise it."

    Christ taught us to love one another and to take care of each other.  I don't know that I would have had an abortion if I had been pregnant at 17 (I thoght that I was)  but I know that that is my decision to make. The fact that during this scare my mother said my family would be with me if I decided to keep it made me fairly certain I would have the child but, if that help had not been offered, I don't know that I would have made the same decision.  Luckily, it was a false alarm and I never had to find out.

    Jesus also said that the poor would always be with us.  We need to find a way to help each other, not condemn.  The church I sing at is part of a program called "Out of the Cold".  Once a week they assist a downtown church in providing a hot lunch and a place out of the elements for the homeless.  These people (from a very wealthy neighbourhood) help feed their neighbours and do it with humility and love, knowing that it could just as easily have been them.  And no sermons are preached.  This, to me, is Christianity in action.
  7. D-Backs Hack

    D-Backs Hack Guest

    Nice post, HC.

    When I first became a Sunday school teacher for high-school students at my church, one of the pastors told me, "You know, the kids will open the book and study the scripture, but YOU will be the best Bible they'll read."

    Have never forgotten that.
  8. Pastor

    Pastor Active Member

    Jack, none of what they provide is "free." Free implies that there are no strings attached which is not at all the case. I'm all for providing children with everything they need. I have a problem with people providing the love and care under specific conditions and guidelines.

    The program seems designed more towards indoctrinating children into a specific way of life more so than actually trying to help better themselves. Of course, to those running the program, they view the two as equal but that isn't necessarily the case.
  9. alleyallen

    alleyallen Guest

    MM, I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself, and my disdain isn't toward Christianity ... I am a Christian ... but toward ORGANIZED RELIGION. Let's keep the two separated, everyone, please.
  10. JackS

    JackS Member

    No offense, but 5 minutes ago you didn't even know what Angel Tree was. Now you're an expert on how they "indoctrinate" children?

    They "indoctrinate" in about the same manner you promote soccer. Just swallow hard and give Colson a little credit for doing something good after his past transgressions.
  11. Pastor

    Pastor Active Member

    With the help of the internet, I can look and up and read information on just about any topic. I know Colson's prison program as I had read up on it quite a while ago. Knowing what I know about that and what I've been able to read, I can say that the information is rather valid.

    As to comparisons to soccer, come on now. I don't force people into liking something or following anything. I don't setup camps designed to promote my ideals.

    If you want to help children, help them. Do not put strings attached to the help you provide.
  12. JackS

    JackS Member

    There are no strings attached to Angel Tree. That's *exactly* why I used the soccer reference. As far as you not "setting up camps designed to promote your ideals," I'm guessing you don't do anything period to help prisoners' children. And that's not intended as an insult, because most people don't. But it is intended to show you have absolutely no business criticizing those who do.

    I want you to show me exactly what you read that criticized Angel Tree as some sort of indoctrination program. I doubt even Prison Fellowship hater Barry Lynn has done that. Anyone criticizing this program is on really shaky ground, to say the least. Are you concerned Marine Toys for Tots is indoctrinating kids to join the military too?

    Look, I obviously know nothing about your background, but I will say with certainty that most people in need do not think like you. They don't say, oh shit, why do those damn Christians have to say "Jesus loves you" every time they're spending time with me or providing me some sort of help?

    They're just grateful to have someone there for them.

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