1. Welcome to SportsJournalists.com, a friendly forum for discussing all things sports and journalism.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register for a free account to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.
    • Fewer ads.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Feds, grand jury, apparently targeting Armstrong for doping

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Jersey_Guy, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    That 2004 test and the results have nothing to do with the anyone ever indicted because of Novitzky.

    If that is your proof that he's crooked -- which suggests, he creates false cases against innocent people with manufactured evidence -- you are really going to have to try again. How many times does a higher court disallow some search or seizure? It doesn't mean the cops are crooked. It means they pushed the limit and a court pushed it back.

    The results of those 2004 tests are what they are. Novitzky didn't manufacture evidence -- that is what crooked suggests, when you use the word over and over again.

    If that is your proof that he's crooked, good luck garnering any sympathy. He didn't create those failed test results. And he wasn't the idiot at the MLB Players Assn. who didn't destroy the evidence immediately, rather than keeping the samples and records around in an attempt to try to bring the number of positive tests down, so it wouldn't reach the 5 percent threshold that triggered permanent testing.

    The fact that those positive results were sitting around to be seized in the first place is because of the stupidity of the players themselves, who didn't insist the evidence of their drug use (in a test they knew was coming!) be destroyed immediately. It's hard to feel much sympathy, even if a court did invalidate the actual seizure of the positive tests.

    The court didn't rule that the 104 failed tests were made up or manufactured by Novitzky, though. Agree?
     
  2. 21

    21 Well-Known Member

    Ragu--what adjective would you substitute for crooked? Maybe we can compromise here.
     
  3. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    Maybe I missed it but what crime is he investigating with respect to Armstrong?
     
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    21, Hmmm. He's a grandstander. He loves publicity. He has gone after these cases with a giant boner. He's a dog with a bone.

    I just really hate the characterizations that make him into a liar or a criminal. Has Novitzky manufactured any evidence? Was Victor Conte guilty? Marion Jones? Trevor Graham? Tammy Thomas? Did Novitzky falsely get them convicted on made up evidence?

    I understand the sentiment, if someone feels this way, that these cases are giant waste of time and limited resources. But Cranberry, never stops there.
     
  5. DanOregon

    DanOregon Well-Known Member

    Does it ever end well when someone comes out of retirement? I wonder if Clemens would have been "caught" if he just stayed retired. Armstrong is a stud. But he should have stayed retired.
     
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    If he can prove Armstrong doped, it will be charges that he (and possibly his teammates, owners, managers, etc.) "conspired to defraud their sponsors by doping to improve their performance and win more money and prizes." The part in quotes is from the Times story.
     
  7. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ragu.

    I read that but thought it would be a civil matter. It seems like pretty weak reasoning for an investigation.
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    All of these prosecutions are pretty weak. The fact that they involve high-profile athletes who seemingly have achieved success, wealth and fame with the help of a lie, is the only thing that provides the sense of justice some people see in it. Barry Bonds is being prosecuted for perjury. That's pretty weak stuff, too. The only way you can see any justice in it, is if you see it as a de facto prosecution of Bonds for using PEDs to break the record and then refusing to come clean about the drug use.

    If you're not of the mindset that these prosecutions accomplish a goal of forcing the athletes to be honest and accountable and admit that they lied, yeah, I can see thinking these investigations and prosecutions are a waste of time and resources. If you think the athletes should have their feet held to the fire because they used and have lied their asses off about it, then Novitzky serves a purpose.
     
  9. JC

    JC Well-Known Member

    As taxpayers, is this how you want your money spent?
     
  10. Idaho

    Idaho Active Member

    I'm all for funding WADA, USADA, etc. Let them have their way with the dopers.

    But unless the sponsors themselves -- and do we really think Trek is upset that a doped-up Lance rode their bikes to 7 Tour de France wins, 8 if you include Contador last year -- ask for the inquiries and file suits alleging fraud, I really think the gubment should worry about different things.
     
  11. Shoeless Joe

    Shoeless Joe Active Member

    I'll go along with that, except the WADA part. WADA is the biggest bunch of crooks around. I can't support a group that tells athletes "prove your innocence."

    As for the sponsors, I like that idea. BUT, tell them, "You want to go down this road, then you must return the money you received to any customer that requests it. You don't get to profit for a decade of sales then turn around and get your sponsorship money back."
     
  12. Jersey_Guy

    Jersey_Guy Active Member

    Evidence is thrown out because of the rules of evidence, a judicial distinction. Just because evidence is thrown out does not mean that it was illegally collected, it means that it is not admissible. This obviously isn't commonly understood, nor should it be. The rules are often a judgment call, so evidence gets thrown out every day.

    If cops - any cops - do something ILLEGAL they are fired (at a minimum). But having evidence thrown out happens every day, again, because it's a judgment call.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page