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Does Damon Allen belong in the Football Hall of Fame? Marino says no Moon, yes

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by JR, Sep 1, 2006.

  1. JR

    JR Well-Known Member

    Huntsie is right about one thing: the CFL is a different game requiring different skill sets. And if you don't understand those differences, you've got a problem defining talent.

    Ricky Williams, before he was injured, has been an absolute bust with the Argos because he couldn't adapt to the Canadian game.

    And a lot of starting NFL QB's wouldn't have a chance in the CFL.
     
  2. Bubbler

    Bubbler Well-Known Member

    Micro, I could be wrong, but Flutie was benched in '88 by the Pats, who leaned on then-geezer Steve Grogan to make a playoff run. So you're using specious reasoning there.

    No way in hell Flutie's a Hall of Famer. No way in hell is he even on the short list. I am not kidding when I say that if Flutie goes in, I want Lynn Dickey in the Hall. He did more in the NFL than Flutie ever did, along with probably 100 other quarterbacks who aren't in the Hall.

    And let us dispense with the silliness that this is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame. The NFL ostensibly runs the place, the inductees where yellow NFL sportcoats and the voting is done exclusively by current and former NFL writers representing current and former NFL cities.

    If you're going to go along with the fiction that its an egalitarian Pro Football Hall, hell, I'd rather put Arena Football and definitely USFL'ers in way before CFL'ers.
     
  3. Vic Mackey

    Vic Mackey Member

    outofplace,

    The CFL is not so much "weak" by comparison, it's built for a completely different player. In 1979, Vince Ferragamo quarterbacked the Los Angeles Rams to the Super Bowl. In 1980, his 30 TD passes were second-best in the NFL -- one behind Steve Bartkowski for the league lead -- despite finishing out of the Top 10 in both attempts and completions. The next season, the Montreal Alouettes signed him to a monster contract, and he was a disaster.

    He went back to the NFL the next year, racking up one 500-yard passing game in a successful season for the Rams. Ricky Williams averaged 87 yards rushing/game in his six NFL seasons. In four of them, he surpassed 1,000 yards. Before his July arm injury, he was averaging 39 yards/game with Toronto.

    Does this mean that Ferragamo & Williams suddenly stunk? What it means is that the wider field, the fewer downs, the different schemes were things these two players could not adjust to. In 1993, when the Sacramento Gold Miners became the first American team in the CFL, all sorts of columns were being written in Canada about how they were going to dominate because they were exempt from using Canadian players. They went 6-12. (The one American team that did win the Grey Cup -- Baltimore -- smartly hired a CFL veteran coach and loaded itself with CFL-experienced players.)

    There are two major differences between the leagues: 1) money and 2) size. If you check your football history, when Canadian franchises could compete financially with NFL teams, many big-name college players went north. Johnny Rodgers is commonly cited as the primary example. So did Jackie Parker and Billy Vessels, who spurned the NFL for three years despite being the No. 1 overall pick in 1953. If the dollars were close, black players in particular chose Canada. Johnny Bright went from Drake University to Edmonton, where he became a legend on the field and as a school principal.

    Tom Cousineau was one of the last to do it, and Rocket Ismail famously did so in 1991. But as the dollar gap widened, it stopped happening.

    On-field, size is the biggest factor. CFL linebackers are generally the size of NFL defensive backs. CFL defensive backs look like Mini-Me compared to NFL players. Quite simply, very skilled football players who lack NFL size end up in Canada. NFL scouts will admit that the Canadian game is actually faster than the American one. Larger field=more area to cover=need for speed=unbelievably violent collisions. Special teams are particularly crazy, according to those who have played there.

    Americans who have returned from Canada speak very highly of the league. Bennie Thompson, who was a special teams demon for five NFL teams from 1989-99, freely admitted how the three previous years in Canada saved his career.

    Of course, there was another reason some Americans came north: The NFL didn't want black quarterbacks, like Warren Moon and Damon Allen.

    Allen is an interesting test case for the Pro Hall, since football doesn't have the international history of hockey or basketball. If it wants to change, Allen and Doug Flutie would be perfect choices. I don't believe it wants to change. However, to say that the CFL is "weak" is the same kind of attitude that has the US losing in basketball.
     
  4. Columbo

    Columbo Active Member

    What I would give to see the Super Bowl champ maul the Grey Bowl champ in mid February every year.
     
  5. huntsie

    huntsie Active Member

    And that would happen. That's a given. The NFL is a superior league, with superior athletes. Casey Printers, who was the outstanding player in the CFL, was cut by the Kansas City Chiefs the other day.
    But the CFL is a different game. Allen has played it for 22 years and compiled some tremendous numbers. If you're acknowledging "pro football" accomplishments, he deserves to be there.
    If its NFL exclusive, as the point is being made here, then there's no discussion at all.
     
  6. Vic Mackey

    Vic Mackey Member

    Seven exhibition games between CFL and NFL teams.

    August 12, 1950: Giants 27, Ottawa 6. First half played under CFL rules and field size, second half NFL. Giants led 13-6 at the half.

    August 11, 1951: Giants 41, Ottawa 18. Again, the first half was played under CFL rules and size, after which the Giants led 13-11. Under NFL rules and size, the Giants outscored the Rough Riders 28-7. Ottawa would win the Grey Cup that season. One of their stars was Bob Gain, who went there despite being Green Bay's first-round draft pick that year. Gain, a member of the college football hall of fame, later went to Cleveland, where he was a five-time Pro Bowler for the Browns.

    August 5, 1959: Chicago Cardinals 55, Toronto 26. The Argonauts actually led 13-1 before falling apart. Chicago's coach was Pop Ivy, whose .781 winning percentage is still among the best in CFL history.

    August 6, 1960: Steelers 43, Toronto 16. Blowout, 36-3 at the half.

    August 2, 1961: St. Louis Cardinals 36, Toronto 7. The Cardinals were coached by Ivy and quarterbacked by CFL legend Sam Etcheverry.

    August 5, 1961: Bears 34, Montreal 16. This one went back to CFL rules in the first half, NFL in the second. (According to the various sites I checked, the previous three games were played under some kind of hybrid.) CFL rules: Bears 13, Alouettes 9. NFL rules: Bears 21, Alouettes 7.

    August 8, 1961: Hamilton Tiger-Cats 38, Bills 21. This one was under the hybrid rules (I cannot find an exact clarification for what that means). It was the last game of the series.
     
  7. DyePack

    DyePack New Member

    People in this thread are being way too kind.

    The worst team in the NFL would stomp the shit out of any CFL team.

    Flutie should never be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Nor should Lynn Dickey or Damon Allen.

    Watch the bleeping games.
     
  8. Bubbler

    Bubbler Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Lynn Dickey -- though he roolz hard -- should never be in the Hall. Packers Hall? Hell yes, he's already in. :D

    But if Flutie goes in? I'll cut Dickey's iron-rod leg off and beat the hell out of the geniuses who thought Flutie was deserving of being anywhere near the Hall and demand that Dickey get the same irrational treatment.

    I mean, FUCK, Flutie's barely among the top 5 Bills QB of all-time. Jim Kelly, Joe Ferguson, Jack Kemp, Drew Bledsoe, I suppose Flutie would be next, though old-timers might have some love for Dennis Shaw's one decent season. And some might think Frank Reich might be better, while definitely having more impact on that franchise.
     
  9. JR

    JR Well-Known Member

    Probably. But you've missed the point.

    And as an aside, my cousin's husband played in that game as linebacker for the Ticats (Oskieweewee, baby) :). Recovered a fumble and scored a TD.

    No one here is debating whether the CFL is on a par with the NFL.

    What we're saying is given the radical differences in the game superior achievements like Allen's should be recognized by the FHOF; otherwise, it's the NFL HOF.

    No problem with that. Just don't call it one thing and ignore other things
     
  10. sportschick

    sportschick Active Member

    Re: Does Damon Allen belong in the Football Hall of Fame? Marino says no Moon,

    If this Allen guy gets in, I'm so starting the campaign for Dave Dickenson's induction NOW, dammit!
     
  11. micropolitan guy

    micropolitan guy Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying that Flutie was a Hall of Famer. I'm saying that he proved, in the NFL, he could consistently win football games and improve the team he played for, and would have won a lot more had he been given a legit shot instead of being forced to the CFL, where he was a superstar.

    Kelly, Kemp and Ferguson are the top three all-time Buffalo quarterbacks. I'd put Flutie ahead of Bledsoe, and so would about 75 percent of the fans.
     
  12. Double J

    Double J Active Member

    Great post. Kudos.
     
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