David Cone and Orel Hershiser

Why would it imply that, I always call people that aren't my friends Gator.

 

Except that it isn't. Not even close.

 

lol. ;D ;D ;D

not to their face, but in discussions behind their back, i'm obviously good with taking the liberty. but hey, coulda been worse -- coulda referred to him as 'gates.' but i'm not manky.

 

Here's a question - since voters are "discounting" numbers put up by hitters in the steroid era, might they "adjust" their thinking when it comes to pitchers numbers?

 

You assume pitchers weren't juicing?

 

Couple things...it has been said several times on this thread that Hershiser was outstanding from 1985-1989. That can be a matter of opinion. I would say he was very good, but not outstanding. He was not very good in 1986, and despite good numbers, he was .500 as well in 1987 and 1989. Basically, his four year stats aren't an epic run ala Koufax, Clemens, Johnson, Maddux or even non-HOF guys like Guidry, Herb Score, Denny McClain

However, best pitcher in the NL during that time frame is an interesting statement. My first reaction was bullshit because Gooden was in the league at that time. However, there records really aren't that much better, and in many ways (Cy Young voting, ERA plus, WHIP) Hershiser is better. Same goes for Mike Scott, who also won a CY in that time frame.

Also, that does not mean I am saying Hershiser is a HOFer. Just want to say there is some good discussion on this.

 

I didn't notice Guidry mentioned on this thread. Yes Guidry compares favorably to Hershiser, but I was just comparing to other pitchers mentioned on this thread and I hadn't noticed Guidry's name come up.

Edit to add: Be careful with your bullspits. When I posted, I don't believe Guidry's name had come up yet (perhaps I'm mistaken) and I clearly stated the qualifier "of pitchers mentioned on this thread" or something of that sort. I stand by my post.

I'll add that Hershiser's dominant stretch covered my high school years into my early college years, which also meant it covered the time I was a high school/Legion player and very much invested in the game so in terms of my generation, he was of significant influence. Somebody mentioned his two .500 seasons in that stretch. To me, W-L is a bit overrated for a pitcher. In that same stretch, Nolan Ryan had a year where he had a 2.76 ERA, struck out 270 in 211 2/3 innings and somehow managed to go 8-16 (for the Astros in 1987). That was great, Hall of Fame pitching. If a hitter hits two home runs and his team loses 11-8, he had a great day. But if a pitcher tosses a two-hitter, strikes out 12 and loses 1-0, we say "but he lost."

 

Oh I assume nothing. Looking at Hershiser's late career surge has me wondering about him.

 

Mike Greenwall asks that you refrain from besmirching his nickname.

 

I mentioned Guidry and Jack Morris I think on the first page of this thread. When I think of the best starters who aren't in Cooperstown, those are the two from the last 30 years that I think of first.

I think it's hard to justify that either is deserving. Guidry probably needed two more good seasons after his great 1985 season, but he fell off the map very quickly. Morris needed either to get closer to 300 wins (in the 275 range) or have a lower ERA to merit serious consideration.

 

Your mention of them came on the second page, one post after mine that Shockey was replying to .

 

So which starting pitchers are deserving, but aren't in?