Dark Knight discussions (**SPOILERS!!**)

William Fichtner. he's currently nervous ticing it up as a drug addicted disgraced FBI agent in Prison Break.

 

Glad somebody started this.

My collected thoughts, having seen it twice (once two weeks ago, once yesterday)

1. The movie is, for 4/5 of its running time, filmmaking of the highest order. Kinetic yet coherent, lighted perfectly, excellent sets and locations, terrific action scenes. While it's true that Nolan mercilessly rips off "Heat" - only the two biggest set pieces of that film, along with the concept of a "sitdown" with the major characters, the crooked money manager, the club scene, the glass houses, and William Fitchner himself - he does it well. Brilliantly, in fact. The movie has <i>mood</i> and Heath Ledger's look and performance stands, actually, at a right angle to the cool, dark visuals. Conceptually, I'm deeply impressed with Nolan and Wally Pfister's work. The middle hour - starting with the cop funeral and concluding with Ledger howling outside of that cop car, is like a flawless passage inside of a great novel. You're not watching the movie, you're in it.

2. I said 4/5 for a reason: The ending is anticlimactic, poorly filmed, and clearly redone in the face of Ledger's death. The mapping/cell phone technology makes those scenes a mess. I'm not sure what was, exactly, intended, but the movie should not, under any circumstances, end with ten minutes of Two-Face in a standoff that we are <i>certain</i> will end happily. The Joker's last scene is just a line. That's it. Is he taken away? Killed? Put somewhere? Who knows? Can you think of a great movie that literally leaves its villain hanging without resolution? I imagine, at some point, the Nolans will express whatever idea there was. Clearly, the intention had to be to bring Ledger back, but he died after filming, not during, so that coda we're waiting for, that final look at his face, never comes. A disappointment. The movie should end, period, on him.

3. The movie labors mightily to fold Dent/Two Face into the narrative in an indelible way. He's referred as the white knight and "the best of us" by Batman and Gordon. Here's the problem: The audience, or at least I, am never sold on this. Aaron Eckhart, for one, hasn't been a "white knight" at any point in his career. He's been a couple memorable pricks, in "In The Company of Men" and "Thank You For Smoking," but never this kind of character. Put simply, his arc is not tragic. It's meant to be, meant to crush Batman/Bruce Wayne, but, fact is, the Joker cuts a more sympathetic figure because you sense, even though he never gets his story straight, that he's been badly rebuffed by someone in his life. Eckhart struggles to match up with Dent's supposed "straight arrow" persona. His look and performance style just isn't made for it.

4. Ditto for Rachel Dawes. Ol Mags is a fine actor, but she's such an ill fit for the role, well, what can you say? Waltzing around in attire from 1948, purring out each line, she seems about as much a DA as Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman would be. Mags, BTW, would have made a terrific Catwoman. She makes an awful Dudley Do Right.

5. Those two points matter because the movie hinges on the audience believing and caring about the relationship of Dawes/Dent and what happens when the Joker kills Dawes and deforms Dent. If the actors don't sell it (and they don't, Mags always seems to have one eye on every cute guy in the room) we can't buy it.

6. Ledger's terrific. What a loss to the profession. The most indelible villain since Hannibal Lecter. You could break down what he did, but why?

7. Oldman, too. Don't be surprised if he gets a nom. A very polished, grounding performance. He's the movie control character.

8. Bale's extremely good, but it's almost like Nolan wanted to push him to the edge of the picture. Not enough of a likable (and humorous) actor. Michael Caine makes barely an impression. Morgan Freeman has four scenes.

9. Much will be made of the movie's darkness. Personally, I've never found nihilism all that profound, and what the Joker says isn't nearly as interesting as how he says it. The movie labors hard to stop every 20 minutes or so and navel gaze, especially in regards to differences between Dent and Batman's execution of justice. Since a movie does not exist to show us a lawyer crusader but a caped one, I tired of this debate quickly.

10 Final verdict: The sheer polish, daring and ambition of the filmmaking and Ledger's perf masks over a creaky, convoluted plot with too many characters, not enough Batman and a boring, unsatisfactory, second villain. It's kind of a testament to how movie magic works, and why it matters more than a perfect script. I felt myself getting worked up and tense despite my awareness of its weaknesses. That, to me, is visceral, instictive stuff.

 

Isn't Two-Face next on Batman's dance card?

 

Two-Face was done in Dark Knight, and he won't be back.

 

I didn't expect Two-Face to make an actual appearance in The Dark Knight. I figured they were just going to tease his mutation into "Two-Face" to set up a Part III. Overall, great movie. The crowd applauded several times after Gordon ended up saving Batman, the criminal threw the detonator to the bomb on the other bomb into the water and several other scenes.

Great movie. I want to see it again.

 

That was the original plan when the story was written. I'm glad they did it this way instead.

 

Just got in a couple hours ago from seeing it. Loved the movie. I'm not sure it lived up to my expectations, but that is because they were insanely high.

Ledger was amazing. I never once even considered the man behind the makeup. I disagree with Alma as well. I liked how they left it. That is how Batman beats the joker, by stopping him without breaking his rule about killing.

I also liked Eckhart's performance. I never thought he was supposed to be a great hero. I think Bruce Wayne just wanted so desperately for a real hero to take his place that he tried to thrust Harvey Dent into a role he couldn't handle. I think that was the point behind the multiple references to Dent's discomfort at the fundraiser.

In the end, a White Knight couldn't save Gotham. It still needs its Dark Knight for protection.

I think that is a little easier to see if you know the background of the character. My image of Dent comes from the Batman animated series, in which he was disturbed and had a dark, violent side long even before he was scarred. The seeds of Two-Face were there in this movie as well even before Rachel was killed and he was scarred.

Gary Oldman was outstanding. I wasn't fooled by his "death." There was also a cheer in the theater tonight when he turned up alive. Jim Gordon is easily the most likeable character in these movies.

Maggie Gyllenhall is a better actress than Katie Holmes, but she really seemed miscast in the role. To me, she was the biggest disappointment.

It was mentioned on the other thread and bears repeating: Bale's Batman voice sounds forced and it really is a distraction. He is much better as Bruce Wayne.

There were a few very good performances in smaller roles. Tiny Liston's part, as mentioned above, was very well done. Absolutely had me fooled. Michael Caine was excellent again as Alfred.

And of course Morgan Freeman played exactly the same character he always played. But he does do it well.

 

They cannot, under any circumstances, bring Joker back.
They probably had planned to prior to Ledger's death (which would have been great, to see more of him), but there's no way any actor in their right mind is touching that character for a while.

 

Agreed. That line while Joker was hanging upside down seemed like it was meant to set up another appearance. He said that he expected them to be having these battles forever.

Even in the comics, that is the recurring theme. No matter how many horrific things the Joker does, the battle keeps going on and on because Batman still refuses to kill.

 

I was really impressed with the movie. Could totally tell how into the role Heath got, which freaked me out. But I loved it, and definitely want to see it a few more times.

 

I'm speaking of the lack of coda. I have a sense Nolan had one and but needed to drop it after Ledger died.

 

I'm a little confused with the guys who dressed up like Batman. Are they just regular people who are also taking matters into their own hands, becoming vigilantes themselves and aping Batman? Or were they hired thugs who are trying to give Batman bad press? (This is one of the reasons why I'm going to see it again)

Also, for argument's sake, if the Nolans decided to go ahead and use the Joker character again, who would be the best possible replacement for Ledger? Is there an actor who could at least come close to replicating Ledger's take on the Joker's psychology and mannerisms, or is it a lost cause?