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Convince me.

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by imjustagirl, Sep 19, 2013.

  1. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    Old_Tony and BTExpress make some good points. I have questioned God's existence for many, many reasons. But it's funny. Human suffering has never been one of them.
     
  2. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    That's a very interesting thought.
     
  3. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    I didn't intend my response to be condescending. When it comes to Christian apologetics -- which is probably what would appeal to most journalists, writers, thinkers -- I don't have much. I'm dubious as to how much they work, honestly. Apologetics are often insufficient for the strongest existential pain. At the very bottom of the "why" question is, fundamentally, a mystery. Why would God allow for a scenario where his greatest creation can invite its own complete destruction, only for that same God to know, before the invitation was extended by creation to evil, that it would be extended, necessitating the sacrifice of God's own son, who existed before the creation, to atone for the acceptance of evil by the creation? That's a nightmare of logic.

    This the story Christians believe. Setting everything else aside -- our differences on political issues, works righteousness, the necessity of baptism, how communion works or anything else -- we believe the general framework above. Within that framework, we agree: God killed his own son, a perfectly true person, the only one, for all the rest who weren't. Which is to say that God knows suffering at an level more intimate than we can conceive, since, in another mysterious twist, God and his son are two parts of a three-part whole.

    But as far as reason? The above does not apply to conventional reason. There are "whys" found in the Bible, and I like many of them. But they are "why" as we understand "why," as the Bible allows us to understand them. "Why" is there suffering? Because Adam ate a fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and to know evil means having to experience it, which is to experience suffering and death. "Why" is there evil in the first place? Because it was allowed for, and to bring "good" into relief. Why did God choose to allow for evil, suffering and death? I don't know why. He could have created a static world without free will, an unending cycle of good. He did not.

    As a result, there are some who'd say "this is no kind of God." I'd say "this is the only God."
     
  4. TigerVols

    TigerVols Well-Known Member

    Or, he could have been dreamed up by a never-ending list of charlatans seeking to cover their own bad deeds against, and gain profit from, weaker people.
     
  5. shockey

    shockey Active Member

    so very sorry to hear of your beautiful friend's inspiring, courageous fight... try as they might there isn't a soul here or anywhere else who could ever make any sense of this to your -- or any right-thinking person's -- satisfaction. i envy all who are so spiritual that they find comfort from their faith but i'm long past the point where i can buy any of that (imo) foolishness.

    do your best to lean of your friends for strength and comfort, and know that your ability to love and befriend people doesn't come without a painful cost. and inexplicable, painful cost.
     
  6. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    I totally get how silly all religions, and the belief in God, can appear.

    And, there are definitely some charlatans, perverts, and profit seekers who used religion as a basis for attaining worldly pursuits.

    But, then we have Jesus...

    His teachings still stand up.

    Unlike other religions, and their founders, nothing Jesus ever did, or said, now appears offensive. He sought no worldly power, or riches. (And, while tradition says he didn't marry, or have sex, it's pretty safe to assume that if he did, he didn't have some harem.)

    And, certainly, the Gospels are not history books, nor were they written in real time, but, the Jesus described is not the person you would invent if you were trying to come up with a religion with wide appeal, or that would bring you riches or power.

    So, how do folks square Jesus?
     
  7. WriteThinking

    WriteThinking Well-Known Member

    Alma, you're not the only one who thought that perhaps they should explain their intentions, or felt like maybe they should apologize to ijag for a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of tone in a post. I've been thinking ijag's sentiment was directed at me, as well.

    I'd submit to ijag, though, that of course you want to be convinced. We'd all like to be convinced, for sure, about what might happen upon our own or someone else's death, or be assured that some good reason exists for something bad inexplicably happening, especially to someone who doesn't seem to deserve it in any way, shape or form.

    But we can't know -- not in the way we tend to think of certainty and knowledge, anyway.

    That is where, and why, faith comes in.
     
  8. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    If God were dreamed up, then how did you arrive at your definition of "bad," and how do you know you're right?
     
  9. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by "square Jesus?"

    Do you mean how do non-believers explain the story? It's a story. Just because you believe it is more realistic and holds up better than some comparable stories doesn't make it real.

    I think he's more of a legend. I can believe there was a good man named Jesus Christ who found a way to inspire others to follow his example. I just don't believe that he was any more than that.

    There is nothing wrong with the ideals Christianity is based upon. It's some of the other crap that has grown up around those ideals that can be troubling. If Jesus Christ was real and he was everything Christians believe he was and he did come back, I think he'd be VERY disappointed in a great deal of what has been done in his name.
     
  10. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    First, Jesus is either who he said he is or he's a delusional, convincing sociopath. Because what he claimed he is and what he did during his short ministry flipped the entire world on its head.

    Second, I suppose he'd be disappointed, but it wouldn't be a kind of reactionary disappointment. He said before he died there'd be people who claimed his as savior who never knew him. After he did die, lots of folks in Acts claimed to do things in his name that were clearly not done in his name. The crap was there from the very beginning. If you believe it, the very people who should have celebrated Jesus had him killed. I can't imagine there being any greater disappointment than that, but Jesus said to forgive them. He saved his confusion and sadness for God, in the garden and on the cross. He saved some of his greatest frustration for his disciples and his own mother at the wedding party.
     
  11. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    But, he's more than a "good man". (Which isn't to necessarily say he's the Son of God.)

    But, there's nothing you can point to that he taught that a follower today would be embarrassed by.

    Mohammad waged war, and married Aisha when she was 6.

    His belief system wasn't racist. It didn't teach hate of any kind.

    I'm not sure you can find a founder of a religion who is comparable.
     
  12. Alma

    Alma Well-Known Member

    This is simply inaccurate. Most of it is remarkably offensive to our human nature, then, now, always. It if weren't, he wouldn't be Jesus.

    Jesus was not a nice man in the conventional sense of the word. Infinitely good. Often not nice. Nice and good are not the same thing, though.
     
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