Chipper: steroid cloud will follow A-Rod

John D. Villarreal · Aug 9, 2007

buckweaver said:

John D. Villarreal said:

buckweaver said:

Rok: Can you make your point any more concisely? Three grafs or less, just this once, please. I'm interested in this thread, but I'm not interested in reading a dissertation. Thank you.
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I hear you, but it is his style & that is kind of insulting in a way even though I know you are not trying to be BW.
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Actually, John, I'm sure you're aware that in any type of written communication, it is not the responsibility of the reader to try to connect with the writer. It is the responsibility of the writer to adapt his "style" in order to connect with the reader -- at least, if the writer is interested in getting his point across effectively.

If the writer is only interested in making his point, however ... then who gives a shit about the reader, right?
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I hear that & I don't really disagree.

That is why I do videos as I am much better in that medium (radio/TV/speaking).

It may surprise some - lol, but I actually can write well, even quite powerfully (I mean I did do well in law school & have been published & all), but it takes work/time for me & isn't really fun or efficient. I like to produce quality & volume which is why I do what I do. When I write here I have fun while making points - some get through some don't.

Rok is very detailed, which is great, but he can lose the forrest through the trees & this is a big area of management for me with him when I use him on deals - focus & efficiency.

That being said, he is very talented & knowledgable & my only point is I agree with you, yet the info from Rok is always all there. Thus, if people are interested they can find it without too much trouble.

That is all I am saying, but hey I don't have a dog in that fight.

John

Fenian_Bastard · Aug 9, 2007

Help, I am sometimes lost in the trees!

Sorry, JDV. Couldn't resist.

The Big Ragu · Aug 9, 2007

Fenian_Bastard said:

The Big Ragu said:

Fenian_Bastard said:

The Big Ragu said:

Fenian_Bastard said:

Ragu --
Sorry.
The "Bonds Created The Suspicion" -- aka "It's The Era." -- argument is journalistically unsound and morally obtuse. You are NOT REQUIRED to believe on suspicion. Nobody in this business is obligated to become part of a drug hysteria. Believe it when you see the evidence, and Chipper Jones should spend more time knocking up waitresses and less time running his mouth.
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Way mischaracterize what I said. And I know you are much more intelligent than this, Fenian. I am not calling for drug hysteria. This *is* an Era. I am not the one who coined the phrase the "steroid era." And the phrase is not some irrational characterization. It's based on the fact that players discovered these drugs, used them throughout the 90s and into the present and changed the sport's landscape.

Did you actually read my post... and notice that I wrote it is PATENTLY UNFAIR to accuse A-Rod because there is NO EVIDENCE of his use? What I did say, is that in the current environment it is fair to ask anyone and everyone questions. If that is journalistically unsound, I suggest you just read box scores and forget that for most people sports are about human drama, the means used to achieve accomplishments and the stories that go beyond the hits and runs scored. My point was that there is very compelling evidence that Barry Bonds used that puts it at near certainty for most people. That is why he falls under suspicion. If someone has that kind of evidence of A-Rod's use it needs to be brought to light before what Chipper Jones said has any legitimacy.

Please don't make up an argument though, attribute it to me and then call it morally obtuse.
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I didn't mean to attribute the argument to you, although I can see why you might believe that I had , given the lack of clarity at the top of my post.
However, this sentence, and its sentiment, is still pretty bad:

"What I did say, is that in the current environment it is fair to ask anyone and everyone questions."

Absent anything but suspicion, and the invocation of an "era," it is, in fact, extremely unfair to ask someone if they've broken the law.
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FB, thanks. I really did misunderstand. After you addressed me specifically, I thought you were attributing that to me.

We are going to agree to disagree on that one point. This isn't a random witch hunt. This isn't walking up to people on the street interrogating them. These guys are public figures, who earn a ton of money, are showered with all kinds of perks, etc. I don't begrudge them one bit. But the price they pay for all the perks is scrutiny the rest of us don't have to deal with. This particular scrutiny would have seemed out of line to anyone with common sense 25 years ago, because it would have been out of left field, so to speak. But the lines of appropriateness have changed.

PEDs are the biggest issue in baseball. And because of the way baseball itself has handled it and the lies of the players who have used or are using, it is impossible to know who his and who isn't. In that sort of environment, it seems perfectly appropriate to me at least, to have questions--and ask them. You don't have to be an ass about it. You don't have to ambush a guy and demand that he pee in a cup. But if Jose Canseco drops A-Rod's name in a conversation and you are covering that team, you aren't doing your due diligence if you don't immediately walk right up to A-Rod, look him in the eye and ask him pointedly about it. It's not personal. This is the environment in the sport he has chosen to play -- a sport that has given him a lot more in return than the inconvenience of a simple "yes or no" question that really isn't a big deal if the answer is "no."
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Sorry, it is still, "Are you now and have you ever been?" and I simply won't do that. Arrest his doctor. Have some documents filed in a legal proceeding. I need more than someone's say-so to accuse someone of breaking the law. How much he earns and his high profile are utterly irrelevant. Just as Costas is not justified in bragging that he's not using "alleged" even though, if they caught a stick-up kid with the gun in his hand, the rules I learned say the crime is "alleged" until adjudication. The rules don't change because a guy is rich and famous. Or they ought not to.
Sorry I made such a hash out of that first post.
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FB, Amazingly, you brought up a pet peeve of mine . Yes, I agree that it is always "alleged," even when the stick-up kid gets caught with the gun in his hand. And that is the way I have always done my job. This, however, gets taken way too far by many in the print media, at least. That stick-up kid could have also been caught shooting the cashier on 5 video surveillance cameras, have 10 eye-witnesses who saw it all, have confessed to the crime immediately upon the police showing up and have used the gun in 15 other crimes where he left his DNA at the crime scene. And there'd be reporters so intent on being "objective" that they'd search out the other side to give a "balanced" quote equal play. You see that a lot and it drives me up the wall. Creating another side, where there really isn't one, just to say that you gave both sides, is not being objective. Far too often, things are what they seem. And the REAL objective way to report it is to not overstate the alternative you have to really go searching for or stretch to come up with.

John D. Villarreal · Aug 9, 2007

cranberry said:

Rok ... interesting stuff but Buckweaver is right. You make Ragu's posts look concise.

JDV ... I haven't been coming around much lately. And by the time I get to your threads, they're already locked.

Anyway, now that you're here I'm sure the kids on the night crew will feel some need to post about anything but the thread subject.

Oh well. It was a good thread while it lasted.
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Ha ha ha,

Nice!

I know, I like this thread which is another reason I need to bug off it soon - lol.

Yeah, we need to catch up soon off-line. Great stuff as always!

JDV

BYH · Aug 9, 2007

cranberry said:

Rok ... interesting stuff but Buckweaver is right. You make Ragu's posts look concise.

JDV ... I haven't been coming around much lately. And by the time I get to your threads, they're already locked.

Anyway, now that you're here I'm sure the kids on the night crew will feel some need to post about anything but the thread subject.

Oh well. It was a good thread while it lasted.
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Poor JDV. Misunderstood, barrier-crashing sports journalism savant mocked by the establishment. Let's break out the 8th grade band equipment.

novelist_wannabe · Aug 9, 2007

spnited said:

So Chipper hit about a 500-foot home run today. Should the first question to him be "have you ever taken steroids?"
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someone should ask John Maine if he took performance detracting drugs ;D

I've had this discussion dozens of times already with my buds. The fact is, no one is above suspicion, which may be the saddest aspect of the steriods conundrum. A-Rod and his handlers better come up with a solid line of answers, because the more homers he hits -- and I've seen one projection that had him winding up with more than 900 -- the more questions he will be asked about it.

John D. Villarreal · Aug 9, 2007

buckweaver said:

Of course you have a dog in that fight, John, let's be realistic here. Anyway, my point is -- I'm more interested in what Rok says than how he says it. But if he doesn't give a shit if anyone can comprehend the content of the message, then what's the point of conveying the message?
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That is why I am saying that Rok & I need to do something formal as right now I don't care enough/have enough time & I need to spend the time to get it all pulled together w/ Rok and whoever else.

So, that is the dilemma. Like I said, once I clear my plate I will take a look at this probably in conjunction with my other efforts on this subject and for Big Mac prior to the HOF vote again this year at the latest.

I hear what you are saying.

The Big Ragu · Aug 9, 2007

cranberry said:

Rok ... interesting stuff but Buckweaver is right. You make Ragu's posts look concise.

JDV ... I haven't been coming around much lately. And by the time I get to your threads, they're already locked.

Anyway, now that you're here I'm sure the kids on the night crew will feel some need to post about anything but the thread subject.

Oh well. It was a good thread while it lasted.
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Maybe not concise (although I don't hear that from others). CERTAINLY not nasty and condescending, which in your case is beyond unwarranted.

jgmacg · Aug 9, 2007

Fenian_Bastard said:

Help, I am sometimes lost in the trees!

Sorry, JDV. Couldn't resist.
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"Agarn!"

John D. Villarreal · Aug 9, 2007

Fenian_Bastard said:

Help, I am sometimes lost in the trees!

Sorry, JDV. Couldn't resist.
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Love it!

Any time I can be compared to the Duke I am cool with that.

When I was a little dude I hated black and white TV but Wayne movies, 3 stooges, Hogan's Heros, and even the occasional Hope/Crosby movie were always worth watching. Hitchcock was tight as well.

JDV

Edit: Yes, F-Troop was also bomb!

jgmacg · Aug 9, 2007

Oy.

John D. Villarreal · Aug 9, 2007

Ok,

I gotta bounce out & get on my work.

Good thread so congrats to GB for starting & everyone else for the contributions. Cran's additions took it to the next level.

Later dudes!

JDV

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