C.C. Sabathia: Hall of Famer?

He's 75th in IP, and now he's going on the DL for 10 days despite the lower workload.

 

You think Mussina should be a lock for the HOF, but Sabathia shouldn't get in?

 

No the injury hurt him most.

Take out his first year (8 innings) and his last (24.2).

It's a 16-year run -- 87-89 are great. 85 is great. His 84 is really good but he wasn't a full-time starter yet -- still the first six years are really good.

After 89, there isn't a lot through the last full year in 1999. 90 and 91 he was injured and working back and only had 137 innings combined. From 92 to 99 he went 97-78 in those eight years. Strikeout numbers plummeted and he was below league average three times, just above in three others.

The injury potentially robbed him of a run from 84-92 that would have been a pretty dominant nine-year stretch. I think he needs that to be a viable peak candidate -- you'd probably be able to say only Clemens had a better 10-year stretch at the time.

His postseason adds to his argument but I don't think it pushes him over the line.

 

della,

Spot on, but will add the sad caveat. He was a .500 pitcher in 1987 and 1989 despite amazing numbers elsewhere. That, in the eyes of voters, will kill him. To me, he is remembered by many people as a guy who had a one for the ages season in 1988, and was never never the same pitcher again. The reality, he was likely just as good in 1989, but led the league in losses.

 

And that is why looking at wins and losses is ridiculous. Look at DeGrom this year, I hope he wins the Cy with 10 wins.

 

Jc,

Agree with you 100 percent.

 

I don't think it will -- even at the time with those records he had fourth-place Cy Young finishes so they were willing to look past them to a point. The problem beyond wins and losses is that, outside of his five best seasons, his other 12 full years he was barely league average. The dominance wasn't long enough for him to be a viable peak candidate.

They way Felix Hernandez is trending, he will be a better version of Hershiser without the playoff success to bolster his candidacy.

 

I think Sabathia is a borderline case. I lean yes on him, whereas to me, Mussina's case is stronger across the board.

 

But after missing most of 90, Hershier rebounded for a good season in 91. Hernandez dropped quite a bit last season and even more this year.
He's 32 and threw a lot of innings when he was younger. Think he should be better than this year, but not sure how far he will rebound.

 

Mussina 3.68 ERA 123 ERA plus 2813 strikeouts in 3562 innings

Sabathia 3.69 117 2952 in 3436.

Guess Mussina is a more clean-cut guy.

Postseason, which is a smaller sample size, but Sabathia MVP of the 09 ALCS and
10-6 with 4.20 in 23 games.

Mussina 7-8 3.42 in 23 games.

 

Hernandez isn't an injury thing though. He's been trending bad the last two years. If he gets the chances to pitch the next, say, five years (he's only under contract for 2019), then he'll just be adding the career totals. There's a legit chance he doesn't reach 3,000 career innings.

 

Mussina's performance has more stability, so that plus the innings makes him a better candidate to me. Sabathia essentially has 870 innings now where he has either been 1) a below average starter or 2) highly effective, but capped out at 5 to 6 innings per start. Mussina was essentially league average or better for 16 of his 18 years in the league.

Looking at Sabathia's stats closer, I think I'm drifting firmly over to the 'he should be in' side, but I still think Mussina's overall case is stronger. Sabathia's peak was really god damn awesome - 2006-12 - but it's not like Mussina was some bum, and his 97-02 stretch compares favorable. I'm also a Boston fan, so its not like I have fond memories of either guy, since both of them have had plenty of good games against the Sox.