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Brian Dawkins - HOF?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by MisterCreosote, Apr 23, 2012.

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  1. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    Numbers are a very difficult way to judge a defensive football player because if a player is really great, the offensive team will run everything they can away from them.

    Look at Ray Lewis...
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LewiRa00.htm

    Notice how he got fewer tackles after his first few seasons. It's not because he was a lesser player, but more because teams knew fucking with him was pointless.

    Post season awards are the first thing I look at when I judge a defensive player. That might suck, but defensive numbers, like Paul Krause's, can skew a players true worth.
     
    93Devil, Apr 23, 2012
    #25
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    When I judge a player, I do it based on their play.

    You can breathe a sigh of relief. Somehow people haven't undervalued Ray Lewis.

    I don't know how. It's the damndest thing.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 23, 2012
    #26
  3. dooley_womack1

    dooley_womack1 Well-Known Member

    He doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he always drinks Dos Equis. Please remain on topic, and stay thirsty, my friends.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2014
    dooley_womack1, Apr 23, 2012
    #27
  4. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    Then why did you note their stats?
     
    93Devil, Apr 23, 2012
    #28
  5. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    You are entitled to be wrong.

    The only thing Dawkins has on Polamalu are longevity and durability. Those are huge in the NFL. No doubt. But that is it.

    Sorry, but you really don't get what he does for that defense. You have made that very clear.
     
    outofplace, Apr 23, 2012
    #29
  6. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Atwater couldn't cover. At all. That kind of hurts his cause.
     
    outofplace, Apr 23, 2012
    #30
  7. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    You answered your own questioned. I noted stats. I never made a HoF case based on stats, the way you now want to shift the goalposts, I am assuming, 93Devil style. I even responded to mizzou and specifically said, "I am not comparing them on stats." The post is still there if you scroll back.

    I pointed out that Brian Dawkins was a harder hitter, better tackler and more accomplished safety blitzer in his prime than Polamalu has been. And I pointed to Ed Reed's ball hawking skills as something that makes him stand out -- even though I do think it is a bit unfair to compare a free safety to a strong safety.

    I'm not alone at putting both of them ahead of Polamalu, if you combine strong and free safeties, but I know opinions are opinions.

    I did mention stats. As in stats matter, which is why safeties generally have a hard time getting into the Hall. It's why there are a lot of very good safeties left out. Which led to another point. I'd put Cliff Harris. Steve Atwater and Donnie Shell's careers ahead of where Polamalu's is right now. They all did more, accomplished more. All of them have sniffed the Hall of Fame, none have gotten in.

    In my opinion, Polamalu is a really good player, a guy who could be a hall of famer, but needs to do quite a bit more. I also think he is overrated -- he has the hair, the endorsements and the Steelers. And in that regard, he is a lot like Jack Tatum, who was a big name, had a big nickname, and got a lot of attention when he played. ... but not a Hall of Famer. Although, Polamalu is quite a bit better player overall, obviously.

    But I never once made the case for any of those guys being in the HoF based on stats, the way you now want to argue. My posts are still there.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 23, 2012
    #31
  8. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    Whoops...

    You are right. It was other posters that mentioned stats.

    But the Steelers do not make it to three Super Bowls without him.
     
    93Devil, Apr 23, 2012
    #32
  9. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but I've never bought much into the inspirational leader stuff. Way too hard to demonstrate.

    I'm talking about what a player actually does on the field, including covering responsibilities no other safety would try because he is so explosive to the ball.

    Again, if Ragu wants to put Dawkins ahead of him on durability? I guess I can see that. But he is saying Dawkins was a better player when both were healthy? Again, I go back to saying that is simply a lack of understanding of what Polamalu does in that defense.
     
    outofplace, Apr 23, 2012
    #33
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I put Dawkins ahead of him as a player. Ed Reed too. But repeat for the fourth time that I "clearly" don't understand what he does for the Steelers defense, as if that is some kind of mystical argument for why Polamalu is a Hall of Famer if his career ends tomorrow -- ahead of Brian Dawkins, ahead of Ed Reed, and in despite the fact that guys like Steve Atwater, Cliff Harris and Donnie Shell (perhaps you don't understand what they "meant" to their defenses -- that wonderful vague standard) aren't even in.
     
    The Big Ragu, Apr 23, 2012
    #34
  11. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    His run support and closing speed is amazing. He tackled Chris Johnson two yards behind the line of scrimmage, during the season that Johnson ran for 2,000, off of an end run and Polamalu was not even blitzing on the play. (
    1:18 mark) It was an OMG play. It's a play that 99.9% of all football players cannot make.

    But what he does that makes the defense click is make the opposing QB take about a half beat longer than they should when throwing the ball because they have to find him and see what he is doing. They are always looking for him, and when they don't find him, they look like Joe Flacco in the AFC Championship game.

    He is impossible to read sometimes. He is so freaking smart that what he does is not called by LeBeau. He just reads what the offense is doing, and takes advantage of hat they called.



    Flacco was dead because Polamalu saw the Rice was staying into block.



    RB stays in and invites Polamalu to rush.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7124536/how-troy-polamalu-ed-reed-changed-nfl-defenses

    Polamalu might be the best I have ever seen play for the Steelers at solving what the offense is doing, reacting to this and making the play. He does it in a fraction of a second.



    There is no play call for "jump over the line and sack the qb." He just sees the play. Watches the QB. Understands the snap count and makes plays like that.
     
    93Devil, Apr 23, 2012
    #35
  12. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    I am not big on tackles (Eugene Lockhart had 222 for the 1-15 Cowboys in 1989), but it's important to judge a strong safety by how he performs in run support.
     
    Herbert Anchovy, Apr 23, 2012
    #36
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