BofA tries to shame son into paying his dead mother's credit card

Baron Scicluna · Feb 10, 2009

waterytart said:

Ace said:

93Devil said:

The bank needs their money.

I hate to say it, but if you are 80 and have $20,000 in credit card debt, you have to assume your children will pick up the tab.
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Why would you assume that? They don't owe it. If the 80-year-old has $20,000 in assets, it's the bank's. If not, tough luck. The kids don't owe squat.
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Correct.
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Not only that, but certain creditors are first in line when it comes to an estate. Burial expenses get paid off first.

Oggiedoggie · Feb 10, 2009

It probably would have been in poor taste for him to send BofA a pound of his mother's flesh.

txsportsscribe · Feb 10, 2009

slappy4428 said:

And while the nitwit said it, am sure that it's exactly what he/she has been taught to say from above.
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tebow would never teach such a thing

cranberry · Feb 10, 2009

blogismycopilot said:

Sure, it reads as if it is a dickhead move on the part of the bank. But I think most of the gut reactions of people expressed on this board gives a pretty good view on how warped our society has become when it comes to credit.

What if your mother had borrowed $20,000 from a friend, and, after she died, that friend came up to you and broached the topic of re-paying?

We've come to consider it a God-given right to buy things with money we do not have.

Again, just to be clear, if the story is accurate, the BofA representative either crossed the line, or is in bad need of a lesson in tact.

Sure, we can blame the banks - and as somebody with a tremendous amount of debt, I've been there - but what would happen if every bank in America suddenly threw up its hands and said, "You know what? Fine. No credit for anybody. No car loans. No house loans. No credit cards." They'd be the opposite of vultures. And everybody would be twice as pissed off.
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Blame goes to two places: the individual who gets in over his head in terms of credit but also to the bank that keeps providing credit to a person unworthy of that credit.

Ace · Feb 10, 2009

cranberry said:

blogismycopilot said:

Sure, it reads as if it is a dickhead move on the part of the bank. But I think most of the gut reactions of people expressed on this board gives a pretty good view on how warped our society has become when it comes to credit.

What if your mother had borrowed $20,000 from a friend, and, after she died, that friend came up to you and broached the topic of re-paying?

We've come to consider it a God-given right to buy things with money we do not have.

Again, just to be clear, if the story is accurate, the BofA representative either crossed the line, or is in bad need of a lesson in tact.

Sure, we can blame the banks - and as somebody with a tremendous amount of debt, I've been there - but what would happen if every bank in America suddenly threw up its hands and said, "You know what? Fine. No credit for anybody. No car loans. No house loans. No credit cards." They'd be the opposite of vultures. And everybody would be twice as pissed off.
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Blame goes to two places: the individual who gets in over his head in terms of credit but also to the bank that keeps providing credit to a person unworthy of that credit.
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In this specific case, the woman wasn't in over her head in terms of credit or necessarily unworthy. She owed less than $1,000 and died. That stuff happens and I am sure that banks can still make a go of it in such cases.

And the BofA representative did exactly as she was taught -- try to get the money back any way you can.

waterytart · Feb 10, 2009

93Devil said:

JR said:

93Devil said:

The bank needs their money.

I hate to say it, but if you are 80 and have $20,000 in credit card debt, you have to assume your children will pick up the tab.

I work with a guy whose brother killed himself. The brother had a shitload of debt and not much equity. In fact, he died owing more money than he had. I don't think he had shit for insurance.

He had no spouse or children, so since he was a co-owner in their since departed mother's house it has just turned into a mess. They cannot sell the house until they sort out the brother's crap.

There is a legal way out of this, I think. Either he had a will and it's screwing up the process, or he did not have one and that is making things hard. I cannot remember.

I just know that I do not want to be a financial burden to those I love when I pass on.
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Well, if he was co-owner of the mother's house, then that's part of the estate. And the bank could rightfully go after that.

If the mother dies and has no estate or the children have no financial ties with their mother , they are legally liable for zilch.
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What is the deceased has a $35,000 insurance policy? The credit card company has a shot at that, right?
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micropolitan guy said:

Of course. The $35,000 is part of the estate, and that's why the legal representative of the estate must publich, three or four times, notices advertising that the estate is being settled and all creditors must file their claims with the estate to get paid. I'm no lawyer, but isn't that what probate is all about?

We run several of these legal notices in our paper every day. If the B of A wanted its money, then file a claim with the attorney handling the estate, and then get in line. The heirs get what's left over.

The guy should have told the B of A person who was handling the estate, and then hung up.

Hypothetically, if my parents owe some money when they die, and don't have a large enough estate to handle the debt (which won't happen), I'm sure as hell not paying it off.
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Actually, life insurance proceeds paid to a spouse or children are frequently beyond the reach of creditors. The laws vary from state to state and by the exact wording of the beneficiary designation, but any competent insurance agent could set up a policy so that the death benefit would be protected.

waterytart · Feb 10, 2009

blogismycopilot said:

Sure, it reads as if it is a dickhead move on the part of the bank. But I think most of the gut reactions of people expressed on this board gives a pretty good view on how warped our society has become when it comes to credit.

What if your mother had borrowed $20,000 from a friend, and, after she died, that friend came up to you and broached the topic of re-paying?
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Apples and oranges.

The bank makes loans based on financial models which assume as one variable that some debts will not be repaid upon the death of the borrower.

The friend, presumably, does not. That doesn't affect your legal obligation, but I believe many people would consider it a moral claim.

The Big Ragu · Feb 10, 2009

Ace, It's still tactless and bad PR, if that is what they did.

It's pretty straightforward. It sounds like this guy represented his mom's estate as a personal representative or administrator. He is required by law to notify her creditors that she is dead. It sounds like he did that. A lot of states require written notification or published notices, though. After that, there is a probate procedure.

There is no reason why a customer service person should be playing let's make a deal on the phone. The person should have said they were sorry for his loss, taken his info and hung up the phone. Then BofA could have followed the procedures creditors follow by law to collect from an estate. File in probate court. The personal representative either determines there are assets to cover the debts and pays them or he or she goes to the court and claim insolvency and the court sorts it out.

If it is insolvent, the beneficiaries get zilch, so her son has to be careful about a false claim. Also, her son has to be careful because by law he can be personally liable if the creditors aren't paid properly or if the estate assets are paid on invalid claims (usually to avoid legit creditors).

But BofA shouldn't be taking that slimy tact on the phone with someone who lost his mom. They can take his info, file in probate court if he doesn't just pay them, and if they had a dispute over the debt they can sue the estate to obtain their money.

Ace · Feb 10, 2009

The Big Ragu said:

Ace, It's still tactless and bad PR, if that is what they did.

It's pretty straightforward. It sounds like this guy represented his mom's estate as a personal representative or administrator. He is required by law to notify her creditors that she is dead. It sounds like he did that. A lot of states require written notification or published notices, though. After that, there is a probate procedure.

There is no reason why a customer service person should be playing let's make a deal on the phone. The person should have said they were sorry for his loss, taken his info and hung up the phone. Then BofA could have followed the procedures creditors follow by law to collect from an estate. File in probate court. The personal representative either determines there are assets to cover the debts and pays them or he or she goes to the court and claim insolvency and the court sorts it out.

If it is insolvent, the beneficiaries get zilch, so her son has to be careful about a false claim. Also, her son has to be careful because by law he can be personally liable if the creditors aren't paid properly or if the estate assets are paid on invalid claims (usually to avoid legit creditors).

But BofA shouldn't be taking that slimy tact on the phone with someone who lost his mom. They can take his info, file in probate court if he doesn't just pay them, and if they had a dispute over the debt they can sue the estate to obtain their money.
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Sounds like you'll never make it in banking, Rags.

I agree it's slimy, but no slimer than the typical bank practice of taking withdrawals immediately out of your account, holding onto deposits till they "clear" and counting pending payments as out of your account even before they are sent.

Hey, if that makes you overdrawn, that's your tough luck. We can charge you a small fee and put the money in your account from a credit card with 24.99 percent interest. Just trying to help.

The Big Ragu · Feb 10, 2009

Ace, All those things might be business practices that they skew in their favor... but they are spelled out to you when you open a bank account in a set of rules and schedules on deposits that are there for anyone to read. At least the rules are clear and you should know them if you do business with a bank.

It's the same in this situation. There are rules in place regarding estates and probate. A customer service person answering the phone shouldn't be playing let's make a deal. It's tactless and it is bad PR. The minute the guy says the estate is insolvent, take his info, go to the probate court and let them figure out if that is the truth.

You are correct, though. I would never make it in banking. No desire to.

Ace · Feb 10, 2009

The Big Ragu said:

Ace, All those things might be business practices that they skew in their favor... but they are spelled out to you when you open a bank account in a set of rules and schedules on deposits that are there for anyone to read. At least the rules are clear and you should know them if you do business with a bank.

It's the same in this situation. There are rules in place regarding estates and probate. A customer service person answering the phone shouldn't be playing let's make a deal. It's tactless and it is bad PR. The minute the guy says the estate is insolvent, take his info, go to the probate court and let them figure out if that is the truth.

You are correct, though. I would never make it in banking. No desire to.
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Collections, either.

I agree it's immoral to try to trick someone into paying. I don't think banks care much about PR these days, though.

YankeeFan · Mar 4, 2009

The Times has an article on this up on their site:

An excerpt:

The banks need another bailout and countless homeowners cannot handle their mortgage payments, but one group is paying its bills: the dead.

Dozens of specially trained agents work on the third floor of DCM Services here, calling up the dear departed’s next of kin and kindly asking if they want to settle the balance on a credit card or bank loan, or perhaps make that final utility bill or cellphone payment.

The people on the other end of the line often have no legal obligation to assume the debt of a spouse, sibling or parent. But they take responsibility for it anyway.
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More: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/business/04dead.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

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BofA tries to shame son into paying his dead mother's credit card

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