Bobby Grich should be in the Hall of Fame

There's one thing about this debate that isn't often mentioned, but should be. On base percentage is a direct function of hitting. Guys who can't hit don't get many walks, either. It's a stat that follows from batting average and slugging percentage.
Batting average, homers, and RBIs approximate a player's offensive ability as well as do the new stats. There's nothing wrong with the new ones, but the added insight they are supposed to provide is in large part wheel reinvention.

 

You shut your goddamn mouth about Tony Ba.

 

I disagree with pretty much every sentence you just wrote.

First of all, you're wrong about "guys who can't hit" not getting many walks. In fact, that's exactly what happens to one-dimensional sluggers like McGwire, Kingman, etc. Because the only way they can beat you is with a long ball, they get walked often because they're not nearly as dangerous any other way.

And you're wrong about batting average measuring offensive ability, too. Batting average does NOT measure on-base percentage very well, which is Ryan Howard can have almost the same OBP as Placido Polanco in 2007 despite hitting 70 points lower. The truth is, Howard was a much more complete hitter than Polanco, who only gets on base by virtue of singles and a couple dozen doubles. Batting average doesn't tell you that Polanco can't do anything else -- OPS does.

The Triple Crown stats, while important, also tell you just part of the story. RBI is a very flawed stat because it relies more on how good your teammates are than any other factor. (A better stat would be something like "RBI rate," which would measure how many runs you drive in per RBI opportunities -- THAT would tell you how good a player is at driving in runs, not just the sum total.)

 

Well, I choose not to, and I'm not a Luddite. Apples and oranges. On-base percentage is often very dependent on your teammates, often as team-dependent as RBI. As an example, Jeff Kent's OBP would fluctuate wildly depending on whether Barry Bonds was hitting behind or whether Edgardo Alfonzo was.

 

Buck, when I said "hitting," I meant BOTH hitting for average and power hitting. Walks come from being able to do one or the other or both. I thought I did say walks had to come from a high batting average or slugging percentage.
My belief in OBP, which is only shorthand for "a walk's as good as a hit," hardly a revolutionary concept, was dented by prolonged exposure to the other Giambi (was his name Jeremy?) who had a stay in Red Sox land. He had a good batting eye. But he couldn't hit, which made that talent pretty useless.
RBIs matter because runs win games. It's pretty impossible to be an accomplished hitter without at least decent RBI totals unless you're hitting leadoff.

 

Fair enough.

But Barry Bonds hitting behind you is a once-in-a-generation situation, so unless there are better examples than Jeff Kent, I don't think OBP being team-dependent happens nearly as often as you say it does.

Does, say, Magglio Ordonez's OBP fluctuate much depending on who's in the lineup ahead of/behind him? Does Todd Helton's? I'd be surprised if it did. Mostly, it's based on their individual performance.

 

False.

Jeff Kent's OBP during his six seasons in SF:

.316, .359, .366, .424 (which was his MVP year. At no point during that season did Bonds hit behind him.), .369, .368.

His career OBP with six teams: .356. He had one statistically aberrant season, his MVP year. Hitting behind him during that season were the likes of J.T. Snow, Ellis Burks, Russ Davis and Felipe Crespo.

 

please don't bring facts to the argument

 

Felipe Crespo for the HOF!

 

Fine. I've made my points, and I stand by them. Spnited was right in bringing up an example of sabermetrics taken to their ridiculous extreme. And the ad hominem attacks and obnoxious certitude that followed were predictable. The Jones thing on the journo board will in time prove a more pleasant hang than this.

 

I still love you, dools.

Now, should we have a nice, cool glass of turnip juice?

 

nice...