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Best players eligible for HOF, not yet in?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by heyabbott, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member

    Rules be damned...

    Maybe it was my age at the time and maybe it was what the Astros didn’t do for him, but J.R. Richard for about 2 1/2 seasons was as good as anyone who ever pitched. That might be an exaggeration, but look it up.

    Richard is the best baseball player, when you look at peak greatness, I can think of not in the HOF.
     
    Starman likes this.
  2. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    I think that would have bothered me more, to see the guy get away with it because he was honored before he got busted. If you something worthy of a consequence, you shouldn't get away with it just because you got away with it long enough.

    I don't buy the idea that nobody was harmed by what Rose did. Messing with the integrity of the game does harm. The Black Sox did harm to individuals and to the game. That's why the rule that Rose broke is in place.

    Gambling on the game definitely isn't worse than murdering someone. It isn't worse than violence, especially domestic abuse. It's a different category entirely because it affects the actual outcomes of the games. If you do enough damage to the integrity of the outcome, interest in the game will disappear or at least be greatly reduced.

    Of course, the same can be true of athletes doing horrible things off the field. Eventually, all the reports of domestic abuse and child abuse have to turn at least some people off. To me, that means the leagues need to do more to the violent offenders, not less to the gamblers.
     
  3. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    Oliver had the misfortune of never quite being the best player on really good teams like the Pirates. At various points, he was sharing the spotlight with Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Dave Parker, Bill Robinson and Richie Zisk.

    And then when he was unquestionably the best guy on his team, he was playing in relative MLB backwaters like Montreal and Texas.

    He really was a damn fine player and he should hopefully get a longer look from the Hall under the new guidelines.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    misterbc and cyclingwriter2 like this.
  4. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    That's for spelling that out...JFC
     
  5. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

    I meant nobody was physically harmed by Rose.

    His gambling probably affected outcomes. How is that different than what Gaylord Perry did? He cheated and was open about it. Pretty sure Phil Niekro doctored a ball or two. They're both in the Hall. Cheating is cheating. Did Rose ever throw a game? Asking because I really don't know. Maybe he managed a little different, but it seems like that would be easy to spot, since managers are so by-the-book. Did he ever make huge departures from the norm?

    Either way, 4,200 hits, all collected before he started becoming a degenerate. Now the all-time hit leader and home run leader are banned. It's just a bad look. And fans don't really give a shit about any of that. The HOF is for the fans, not for some fake glorification of a sport that is rapidly losing popularity.
     
  6. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

  7. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Thanks for yanking my comment out of context and completely misrepresenting its meaning so you could take another shot at me.

    That line was part an argument, pointing out where I agree with Junkie and explaining the area in which I see things differently. The statements are obvious, but they are worth making because they are part of making the point.

    Perhaps the use of rhetoric is beyond you as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  8. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Perry and Niekro were trying to win. Rose was trying to win some games at the expense of others. Throwing games is not the same as cheating to win.
     
  9. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

  10. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

    Was he ever linked to throwing a game? Logic says if he bet against his team, he may have thrown games. But the guy is dumb enough to bet against his team just because he thought they had a bad match-up that day, then go out and try to win anyway. And hell, how did he not do massive prison time if he was fixing games?
     
  11. justgladtobehere

    justgladtobehere Well-Known Member

    Yes, when you account for opportunities and the fact that the opportunities also result in outs. In 5000(!) more PAs, Pete Rose hit the same number of extra base hits as Miguel Cabrera. In those 5000(!) extra PAs Rose made 3000(!) more outs than Cabrera because Cabrera didn't need 15,000 PAs to reach 1,000 XBH.
     
  12. mateen

    mateen Well-Known Member

    Johan Santana might have a case there. His IP and CG are lower due to changes in the game, but apart from that Santana may have been better than Richard was at his peak. Santana led the AL in ERA in 2004 and 2006, and in ERA+, WHIP, and FIP from 2004 to 2006; Richard walked a ton of guys, so more advanced pitching stats aren't as friendly to him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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