Belichick For Pro Football HOF?

So it sounds like what you are saying is that it is ok to cheat in football but not in baseball.

 

Not to get back into the weeds on this one, but Vincent's "memo" was essentially an advisory opinion that young Fay is now using to burnish his own legacy at the expense of virtually everyone else.

 

In this interview Fay seems to have little recollection of memo and also clearly states it was for those not covered by CBA.

BizBall: In the Weds., 11/9 issue of ESPN the Magazine is 16-page examination of the spread of steroid use throughout baseball, and how many of those closely involved with the game were involved. Your name surfaced regarding a memo (pdf) outlining that baseball had a list of banned substances in the memo (pdf) sent to all MLB teams, and while baseball could not test for steroids, if a player was caught with steroids, he would be sent for treatment and subject to penalties. What comments do you have on this issue being raised?

Vincent: I don’t remember much about the circumstances and I don’t remember who really pushed for it. But, I can speculate that it came out of an awareness that for people who were not in the union – not protected by the Union agreement – that steroids might be a problem. I think that we had become to realize that there were a variety of other compounds floating around that were dangerous. We’d heard rumors about Jose Canseco. I think we thought that steroids and the like were basically a “football problem”, but we did think that they were dangerous. And so for at least coaches and managers and everybody else in baseball we thought we ought to go on record and say that this is bad stuff and we don’t want it getting a toe-hold in baseball.

I wish I remembered more. Obviously, it wasn’t a major thing because I don’t think any of us thought steroids was really a major issue at the time. We were so wrapped up in cocaine problems, so I just don’t remember that much about it.

I’m sure that what the General Managers are saying is correct that nobody paid too much attention to it because it was aimed at people who probably weren’t big steroid users anyway. I mean the clubhouse man, and the coaches would hardly be taking steroids. But that’s all we could do. We couldn’t do anything with the union because the union wouldn’t even give us a hearing on strengthening the cocaine drug problem laws. I mean, I’m glad I did it (sent the memo), I wished we’d done more.

BizBall: So, on the contents of the memo, was the subject matter of the document broached to the union at the time, or was this a matter of this is an internal thing sent to the clubs, “Please be aware.”

Vincent: I don’t know the answer to that question. I think it would have been highly unusual to raise it with the union because we knew that there was a contract with them there was no way we could do anything in the middle of the contract. And, I think it was really our attempt to be on record, if this was our universe, if we controlled the whole thing, this is what we would do. And we did it, but we did it only for the people that were not covered by the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

 

For the purpose of consistency, would you put Pete Rose and Joe Jackson in the baseball Hall?

 

I know that wasn't directed at me, but I'll chime in anyway.

I would put Rose and Jackson in the Hall of Fame. I just wouldn't let Rose ever hold a job in baseball again.

But it really isn't a fair comparison. Being involved in gambling and possibly throwing games is much more damaging to the sport than a coach breaking the rules in the pursuit of victory. And I say this even though I can't stand Coach Hoodie and I am happy his team was penalized...though I think it should've been more than one draft pick. and loss of the cap room that it would've taken to pay the draft picks.

 

What about Durocher?

The Associated Press first reported the elaborate ruse on March 22, 1962, citing an unidentified source with the Giants. I reported it about six years ago after a conversation I had with Yvars, who was a backup catcher with the Giants in '51. Yvars revealed, "We had a wiring system in the Polo Grounds that ran from the center field clubhouse to the bullpen to the dugout. Herman Franks, one of our coaches, would station himself upstairs in the center field clubhouse with high powered Navy binoculars. His mission was to pick off the opposing catcher's signs. If Herman grave one buzz to the bullpen, a fastball was on its way. Two buzzes meant a breaking pitch. If I tossed a ball in the air when I was in the bullpen, it signaled a fastball for the batter. If I didn't toss a ball, it meant the pitcher was going to throw a breaking pitch."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_6_60/ai_74090344

 

I am SO sick of the jusifications and explanations and comparisons.

You can cheat, or you can not cheat. Your choice.

The financial penalty and the draft pick are a joke...completely intended to impress the fans. Wade Wilson is off the field for 5 (?) games for taking hgh when he was a coach (not a player), because coaches need to be held to a higher standard? Belichick should be off the field. Period. The first round draft pick? They have another.

You're paying players hundreds of millions of dollars, just fucking let them play. You're charging people hundreds of dollars to go see a game--you can't take a family for less than $500--just let them watch the game without wondering who's cheating.

 

I agree the reaction would not be the same if it had been someone else, but not just because Belichick's an asshole. Also because this is the same team that won 3 recent Super Bowls and came to regularly be referred to as "the smartest team in football" because of the uncanny way they seemed to know what their opponents were doing and run exactly the right counter play or formation.

Yeah, if this happened to a team that sucked in recent years it wouldn't seem as big because we'd feel confident that it didn't have any real impact on the recent history of the game. But, because its the Pats, you have to wonder a bit. Also fanning the flames are pieces like Zimmerman's yesterday suggesting that the cheating in that organization has been a lot more widespread than just this.

 

21 -

I'm not arguing the right or wrong of what Belichik did. It was wrong, of course. But does it keep him out of the Hall of Fame as the thread asks? Not unless you're willing to judge others already there just as harshly.

 

If it turns out cheating was a lot more widespread than this, then the world will come crashing down on Belichick hard. And let's be honest -- Belichick has made no friends in the NFL. (He's "NE Coach" in Madden because he won't join the NFL Coaches Association.) That might have some influence in how hard people go after him, but it will have more influence in how many people are ready to defend him. So far, all I hear (outside of the hardest core of Pats fans) is crickets chirping.

No way the Belichick-as-cheater issue is over yet.

 

My post wasn't directed at you, it just happened to follow yours.

My opinion is that if you need to cheat and break rules to establish yourself as a coaching 'genius,' that would compromise your stature in some way. I also think it's impossible to compare the billion dollar NFL of today to a baseball era when players earned scratch and fans could watch for a buck.

On another note, just saw the Belichick press conference. The man needs some serious help.