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Are retail jobs going the way of farming and manufacturing?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Dick Whitman, May 23, 2013.

  1. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    We would no longer be a superpower within five years. Maybe 10.
     
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Just saw this. I misstated what I was trying to say. It's a zero sum game in that, for example, a job in the U.S. that is outsourced to a place with cheaper labor, means a displaced American worker.

    But as I said in my first posts, focusing on that is myopic. 1) It's standing in the way of progress if you think protectionist policies or public-funding of obsolete goods and services "protects" jobs. It weakens our economy in the long run. 2) And in the long run, the effect you get (as Dick keeps pointing out with reference to the industrial revolution) is that we free up resources to devote to new things -- and the jobs (BETTER jobs) eventually follow those things.

    The difference, as you point out is, we not only get a shifting economy with different kinds of jobs (and the difficulty people have adapting to that). We also get an increased standard of living. We get all kinds of goods and services produced cheaply and a few more of those "unlimited human" wants get met. Productivity and technological gains help us get more out of scarce resources. And that not only benefits us, it benefits a place like Bangladesh. Because instead of having to manufacture our widgets here, we can outsource it there more cheaply and free up resources here to create goods and services that take us beyond our current standard of living. It certainly takes Bangladesh beyond its miserable standard of living to a less miserable standard of living.

    I'll repeat, though, it is an odd time to have that conversation. We are in a worldwide depression right now. Economic activity has ground to a halt. These have always been long-term transitional shifts. But they are shifts that nobody can deny. It's why we don't all live in little farming communities today, without electricity or modern appliances, and with the only other jobs being a local blacksmith and leathersmith.
     
  3. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    "You could say - and I would - that globalization, driven not by human goodness but by the profit motive, has done far more good for far more people than all the foreign aid and soft loans ever provided by well-intentioned governments and international agencies."

    - George Will
     
  4. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    Hey, you can't accuse me of appealing to authority if the authority is me! :D

    How many articles of clothing do you own? How many shirts? How many pants? Your wardrobe is vastly larger and more varied than that of the middle class only a few decades ago. Let's assume you have a median household income. Why is it you have, on such relatively modest means, a wardrobe comparable (in size/variety) to that of a 1-percenter* from 100 years ago? Because of the type of economic progress that you're suggesting is bad.

    *give or take.
     
  5. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    This progress of which you speak, can it not be accelerated and why isn't it? Are their corporate and political forces that spend billions of dollars to suppress the acceleration of this progress?

    In the corporate world, at what point does exploitation become a bad word?
     
  6. doctorquant

    doctorquant Well-Known Member

    Why, yes, of course there are. The study of these falls within the purview of Public Choice Theory. Wouldn't think of you as being all that interested, though.

    I've long been in the ivory tower, so I won't dare try to speak for those folks. I would suggest that an important -- and likely difficult -- first step would be agreeing on just what is and is not exploitation.
     
  7. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    "Yet not nearly as much as much good as there would be if the corporate world wasn't at the same time turning a blind eye to human suffering and buying off impoverished governments to suppress labor standards."

    -- cranberry
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I'm curious about your quote. Maybe a place exists, but I can't think of one. Can you name a country that had a higher standard of living until the corporate world bought off the government to suppress labor standards, and as a result reduced that country's standard of living -- and actually caused human suffering where none existed?

    Also, if you have an example, how did the government that sold its people out, fare?
     
  9. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    Back to retail jobs, any thoughts here on the proliferation of "online shipping warehouses" in rural U.S. towns that are brutally exploiting the labor of low-skilled American workers?

    All that "progress" has consequences, you know.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor
     
  10. cranberry

    cranberry Well-Known Member

    Let's not move the goalposts here. I will stipulate to the fact that increased trade raises the standard of living in anywhere. What I suggested was that corporations work aggressively and spend billions around the globe (PROFIT MOTIVE!) to suppress improvements in labor standards and, therefore, standards of living.
     
  11. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Well-Known Member

    No one likes it, of course. At least I'd hope not.

    I guess my focus is always on reducing the ratio of unskilled American workers to skilled American workers. Everything else then follows.

    In the meantime: Regulate. In practice, it's a difficult balance to strike, because if you over-regulate, the costs of staying in the United States become too high, and you get outsourcing. Which is good in the long-term, again. But you want current workers to continue to make a living, under humane conditions. At the same time, you want to grow the economy and raise the long-term standard of living.

    It's all a lot easier on paper than it is in practice.
     
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Because this phenomenon of our lowest-skilled jobs usually being pretty crappy jobs is a new phenomenon?

    Scrubbing industrial ovens, washing dishes in a kitchen without air conditioning. These are new things?

    A crappy job in a warehouse is the result of progress?

    [​IMG]

    What she described isn't a "consequence" of "progress."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2014
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