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A baseball scoring question

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by WBarnhouse, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. WBarnhouse

    WBarnhouse Member

    I'm not up on my official baseball scoring rules and probabaly never was. But I witnessed this and I'm wondering if it was scored correctly.

    Runners on 1st and 2nd, 2 outs. Slow grounder past the mound, SS gloves, has no play at 1st on the batter. He fakes throw and wheels toward 3rd. Runner from 2nd has rounded too far and is dead to rights in no man's land. He stops. SS runs toward him. Runner breaks for the plate SS (inexplicably) pump fakes twice, finally throws late and past the catcher. Runner from 1st never stops running and also scores. Hitter advances to 3rd. Next hitter doubles.

    Official scorer says all the runs are earned and credits the hitter of the slow grounder with an RBI because the runner from 2nd never stopped running (though he did).

    My points (logical, though perhaps not in official baseball scoring logic).

    No earned runs because the 3rd out should have been made on the runner. Even though the next hitter followed with a 2B, how can you assume the batter who hit the slow grounder who wound up on 3rd would have scored on the 2B. I also don't see how you can give the guy and RBI when the runner scored only because the SS screwed up.

    I welcome SJ's seam heads to offer their opinions.
  2. micropolitan guy

    micropolitan guy Well-Known Member

    First, there is NO RBI on a play if the runner stopped. If he was going all the way, yes, but not once he stopped.

    Unlike a botched ground ball, you can't assume the out in the rundown. So you replay the inning with either the bases loaded, two outs, which it would have been without the errant throw, or a run in, runners at second and third, with the errant throw.

    Either way, the double scores all the runners and all the runs are earned because although there was an error, it did not come on a play where the third out could be assumed.

    I think.
  3. spnited

    spnited Active Member

    Simplest way to explain this is to take the error out of the inning. Then you get:

    Base hit for the batter who hit the slow grounder. RBI only for the guy who hit the double. If the batter after the double made the third out, 2 runs are earned, one is unearned.

    Here's why:
    Infield hit loads the bases -- no runs score without the SS throwing error. Bases-loaded double would produce two runs -- runners, by rule, would only advance as many bases as the batter, you can't assume the runner from first would have scored on bases-loaded double. If batter after the double makes out, only two runs, instead of three, would have scored in the inning without the SS throwing error.

    Thus, two earned runs, one unearned. No RBI for batter who hit the grounder to short (it did not drive in the run).
  4. Sea Bass

    Sea Bass Well-Known Member

    Is this true? I figured if you're giving a guy an error (which I'm certainly not disputing in this case), you're assuming an out.
  5. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    Errors can also be awarded for allowing extra bases, even if there was never going to be an out.

    Regardless, errors are stupid and should be removed from scoring rules.
  6. BB Bobcat

    BB Bobcat Active Member

    I think you have to see the shortstop's throw to know whether the run is earned or not. If the guy would have been out by 20 feet if the SS simply makes a throw to the catcher, then you can say the run scored on the error and its unearned. However, it if would have been a bang bang play and the throw gets away, then you say the run is earned, and the error allows the other baserunner(s) to move up. And you also don't assume the third out to make subsequent runs unearned.

    Errors are tough on rundowns and tag plays, because you can't always assume an out. I think it's the judgment of the scorer usually.
  7. spnited

    spnited Active Member

    Am I missing the blue font here or are you really proposing something this idiotic?
  8. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    I am absolutely proposing it. They are a silly, misapplied rule that is a leftover of the no-gloves era.
  9. spnited

    spnited Active Member

    So in your sabermetric world there is no such thing as an error?
    What do you call a SS fielding a grounder and airmailing a throw into the box seats?
  10. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    A ball in play where the batter reached base. A hit.

    Same as we call it now if the SS trips and falls flat on his face before he touches the ball.

    But this has nothing to do with sabermetrics.
  11. spnited

    spnited Active Member

    Wow. That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.
    I guess we give him a hit, too, for a fielder's choice grounder where the runner is forced at second. Same thing, right. Batter hit the ball and reached base safely.
  12. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    Petty semantics.

    I'll amend my statement:

    A play where the batter put the ball in play, reached base, and no out was recorded.
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