2021 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I never mentioned anything about the Astros.

 

You said all of this: No league wants players or coaches/managers betting on the games they are playing. Otherwise we never know if the results are legitimate. The Black Sox are the poster children for what will go wrong if you go down that road. Rose earned his ban and should not be glorified for it. Put him in for the hits and give him the Mark of Cain on his plaque and be done with it.

If they don't want players betting, because we don't know if the results are legit, they also can't want players cheating in-game, because it taints the results every bit as much and probably more, to the tune of a championship. Yet almost no punishment was meted. Rose earned his ban. What did the Astros earn? Everyone likes to throw around the word "integrity" in holier-than-thou baseball. There is no integrity in that sport.

 

1) Everything I said was with regard to betting on games and throwing games on purpose. It does not apply to what was and was not done with the Astros.
2) The Astros players got off because baseball gave them immunity so they could know the extent of what happened. I fully expect Altuve, Bregman et al are going to have to face the music when they retire and are up for the hall.
3) (and I think this is proper SJ style here) you're responding to an imaginary post

 

1) Cheating = throwing games. Throwing games does not always mean losing on purpose. Artificially gaining an advantage through nefarious means is altering the outcome inorganically.
2) The Astros got off because baseball knows it can't shut down an entire organization because of the financial costs and baseball, like everyone in major sports, is a whore. If baseball had integrity, which it loves to preach about, there would be no more Houston Astros, or at least no more than some smoldering remains.
3) You don't like what I wrote about what you said, so I imagined what you said? Ok. I can't argue with that logic.

 

Is that raw numbers or comparative to the league. When Berkman played, everyone was hitting.

 

It's not like the early to mid-90s was the deadball era either. I was looking at WAR numbers for them, and at the JAWS scores for eligible LFs. I think Belle gets "extra" points for being the best player on Cleveland, along with Manny, when they had their 1990s run - you remember him as a slugger in a way that you don't remember Berkman. And I think the fact that he's well-known for being a malcontent / asshole keeps him in the public mind more than guys like Berkman, Carlos Delgado, Juan Gonzalez, who were all sluggers who had pretty short runs on the ballot.

 

Without checking the numbers, I think of him as a better Sheffield.

 

Do any of the first-timers stick around on the ballot? I can sort of make a case for Buehrle and I can sort of make a case for Hudson, but I'm not sure I really believe either belongs in the HOF. Looking ahead, there aren't any starting pitchers who are obvious candidates on the '22 or '23 ballots. Bartolo Colon would be on the '24 ballot but isn't a notably better candidate than Buehrle or Hudson, then CC Sabathia comes on in '25. Once Clemens and Schilling either get in or exhaust their ballot eligibility, Pettitte could be the only SP still on the ballot.

 

Hudson is in the Top 100 all-time for GS, which kind of surprised me. Then again, while pitchers don't go as deep into games nowadays, they probably pitch deep into their 30s more often now too. His Top 10 comparables is full of Hall of Very Good guys, which is where I'd slot him - Hunter and Dazzy Vance are HoF, and Justin Verlander probably gets in too, but the others are Kevin Brown, Bob Welch, Orel, Dwight Gooden, Zack Greinke, Milt Pappas and Freddie Fitzsimmons. Four all-star games, best Cy Young finish was second in 2000, placed Top 6 for Cy Young only four years.

Buehrle has almost the same list, and practically the same career value. One more all-star game than Hudson, but only one Top 5 Cy Young award finish. Hell of a fielder at first though, and probably the model for a #2 starter for his career.

 

Pete Rose:

Lived for three years with a guy who was subsequently convicted of dealing steroids out of his bodybuilding gym.

Other than increasing muscle mass and density, one of the primary effects of steroids is to reduce healing and recovery time, especially for aging athletes.

Figure it out. What kind of "presumption of innocence" should Pete Rose get on anything?