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2021 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Della9250, Aug 24, 2020.

  1. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member

    And BEFORE the betting.

    Bonds got 750+ homers. He doesn't come close to that without the juice.

    They both cheated equally the same.
     
  2. 3_Octave_Fart

    3_Octave_Fart Well-Known Member

    Bonds actually had a sac bunt in 1998. Four for his career.
     
  3. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    Albert Belle only made five all-star teams, didn't win an MVP, didn't win any golden gloves. He also got started late - his first year as a regular was 25, and his last year, he was 33. His list of comparable players on Baseball Reference, two are in the Hall of Fame - Kiner and Hank Greenburg - and Dick Allen, amusingly, is a comparable. But the other seven are "Hall of Pretty Good" sluggers, like I thought he was, who probably needed another 2 to 5 years of all-star level production to get a serious conversation - Carlos Delgado, Richie Sexson, Juan Gonzalez, Lance Berkman, Ryan Braun, Jermaine Dye, Tim Salmon.
     
  4. Spartan Squad

    Spartan Squad Well-Known Member

    I mean there's a difference between putting Rose and the roid users in with notes on their plaques that say they were caught cheating, suspected of cheating or banned for cheating and making the dude who bet on games he was managing the poster boy.

    No league wants players or coaches/managers betting on the games they are playing. Otherwise we never know if the results are legitimate. The Black Sox are the poster children for what will go wrong if you go down that road. Rose earned his ban and should not be glorified for it. Put him in for the hits and give him the Mark of Cain on his plaque and be done with it.
     
    sgreenwell likes this.
  5. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    Aren't steroids a mostly illegal controlled substance? It isn't like they were "legal" at any point when it came to MLB, its just that they were singled out and tested for specifically later. MLB management and administration stuck its head in the sand and didn't give a shit, but there was a reason players weren't openly talking about doing them in magazine interviews.
     
    Fred siegle likes this.
  6. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    I think of Belle similar to the way I think of Mattingly, Johan Santana, Dale Murphy... Terrell Davis candidates, where the peak was short but magnificent. I would put all 4 in.
     
  7. 3_Octave_Fart

    3_Octave_Fart Well-Known Member

    It's not just gambling for Rose. The bat-corking story I believe came out this year or last and was more damning than the other stuff, in my view.
     
  8. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    I'm more of a "small hall" guy, so I'd probably keep all of them out, with maybe the exception of Santana - Pitching in the 2000s is weird. (And even Davis, I kind of think that the Broncos line of the time had more to do with that. See Olandis Gary, 1159 yard rusher in 1999, and Mike Anderson, almost 1500 yards in 2000, even with guys like Brian Griese, Bubby Brister and Gus Frerrote at QB. Davis was better than Anderson and Gary, obviously, but my suspicion is that he was more of a "normal" great running back that looked superhuman for a couple years because of how god damn good the Broncos line was.)
     
  9. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

    He was a regular at 24. Either that or got 95 RBI as a part-timer, which would be pretty good, no? Belle's career was cut short by a degenerative injury but his 10-year run from 91-2000 to me is the offensive equivalent of Sandy Koufax, whose nine-year run had a period of dominance that really only lasted five years. Belle was dominant for nine seasons. Koufax also had a degenerative injury end his time way too soon yet was a first-ballot HOFer. Belle should not have been that, but he should have been in. Writers, however, hated him, perhaps justifiably.

    And yeah, Belle only made 5 all-star games. He missed in '98, when he hit .328 with 49 HR and 152 RBI and led the league in everybody’s beloved OPS. Was close to that in '99 and didn’t make it again that year. Making an all-star team is out of your control and a popularity contest, which Belle was just never going to win.
     
    Fred siegle likes this.
  10. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

    But they want them banging on garbage cans?
     
  11. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    Eh, for me, he's clearly below the line. Advanced stats don't really help him, because he was not a good defensive player (-12.3 DWAR, vs. 46.2 OWAR). And if anything, I think his "reputation" for being an asshole to the media is probably what keeps his case "alive," a la Jim Rice, vs. other sluggers who have just kind of faded into the mist here. Like, his resume isn't that substantially different than Lance Berkman's, except that Belle lasted two years on the ballot vs. one.
     
  12. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

    Fair enough. Dude in his prime was the best offensive player I have ever seen on a regular basis.
     
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