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2020 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Della9250, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. swingline

    swingline Well-Known Member

    I think Shannon was more a caricature when he was drinking heavily. I grew up on Buck and Shannon in the booth, and although I like Shannon, I'm not sure he's done much that somebody else couldn't have done in his place. His ties to the Cardinals of the past has helped him.
     
    FileNotFound likes this.
  2. heyabbott

    heyabbott Well-Known Member

    Miller belongs on a different list. He’s done more for baseball than Bowie Kuhn and Bud Selig
    Give the rest the Baines treatment. If you were picking a team like gym class, who would be left after you picked Baines, if anyone. Whoever you would pick before Baines gets in.
     
  3. Della9250

    Della9250 Well-Known Member

    That would be the ideal outcome
     
  4. Della9250

    Della9250 Well-Known Member

    I mean, there's no other list for Miller to go on. Although I think it does say something that no other executive or manager was picked from the era to be on the ballot.

    And if you give the Baines treatment to the players like you suggest, they'd all get in.
     
  5. Starman

    Starman Well-Known Member

    pretty much all of them
     
  6. Michael_ Gee

    Michael_ Gee Well-Known Member

    Three most important figures in baseball history in chronological order. 1. Babe Ruth. 2. Jackie Robinson. 3. Marvin Miller. That's he's not already in speaks to how petty and spiteful MLB ownership and management are and how selfish and stupid MLB players are.
     
    matt_garth and heyabbott like this.
  7. Junkie

    Junkie Well-Known Member

    Does Munson not get more consideration because his career was cut short? He was a better player than Simmons, who everybody here believes should be in.
     
  8. Starman

    Starman Well-Known Member

    Personally I use career WAR, not really as a ironclad standard whether a player should be in the HOF or not, but as a general indicator of whether they "belong"; are you dragging down the level of performance in the HOF by letting them in?

    If Whitaker gets in, there will be 21 HOFers who were primarily second basemen. Whitaker would rank 10th in career WAR, i.e., slightly above average. (For comparison, Trammell ranks 9th among 22 HOF shortstops).

    If Simmons and Munson go in, it will make 17 catchers. Simmons and Munson will rank 10th and 12th; slightly below average.

    At first base, there are currently 21. Mattingly and Garvey would make 23; they would rank 21st and 22nd in career WAR. (At the bottom would be, yes, Jim Bottomley.)

    In right field, currently there are 26. If Evans and Parker get in they would be 13th and 24th out of 28 respectively. In center field, Murphy would be 14th of 20.

    (Baines, incidentally, ranks 23rd of the current 26th and would be 27/28. Currently ranked 24th of 26th is Casey Stengel, who is not really in as a player.)

    It's a lot harder to sort out the career WAR standings for pitchers, but just on my thumbnail count I see 68 pitchers currently in, and John would rank about 44th. Several of the guys in the final 10 slots had careers cut short by injury (Koufax, Dizzy Dean) or illness (Addie Joss).

    So out of that bunch, I'd say:

    Solid picks: Whitaker, Evans, Simmons.
    Borderline: Munson, Murphy, John
    Baines Zone: Mattingly, Garvey, Parker.


    Miller should be in as a historical figure.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
    cyclingwriter2 likes this.
  9. Jake from State Farm

    Jake from State Farm Well-Known Member

    Worst player on that list is Garvey
     
    HanSenSE likes this.
  10. Jake from State Farm

    Jake from State Farm Well-Known Member

    Munson was good but Simmons was better
     
    Liut likes this.
  11. Regan MacNeil

    Regan MacNeil Well-Known Member

    Munson's peak was better than Simmons', except, you know, Simmons didn't die when he was 32.

    Munson also had an MVP and a ROY. He also had two rings and stellar postseason numbers. Simmons had none of that.
     
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I grew up in NY, and I was 11 when Munson died. He was a hero around here. and people were devastated when he died. If he had lived and played on, it would have been interesting to see where he would have ended regarded in relation to Bench, Fisk and Simmons.

    Munson was already starting to break down when he died, and he might not have had that many games left behind the plate in his future. He never looked right at first or third or the outfield, so I am not sure how it would have all played out. Bench would have remained Bench and the standard. I think you can argue that Munson was right there with Fisk, although at the time a lot of people gave the edge to Fisk and there is probably a reason why. I'm clouded by my rooting allegiances on that one. With Simmons, I just don't know. I think Simmons suffered for playing in St. Louis and then Milwaukee. I remember everyone acknowledging that he was a premier player always, even if we didn't get to see him that much, a really good catcher and obviouly a hell of a hitter for a catcher. But he was sort of lost in the middle of the country on mostly middling teams for a lot of people on the coasts, which I think hurt him.

    I think Munson at his very peak was probably slightly better than Simmons at his peak, but Simmons at his peak was a really good player, and he remained a pretty durable player at a tough position longer than most catchers, which is worth something.

    I don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame, but with how they have lowered the bar with the veteran's committees, he is in that tier of players that have been getting in.
     
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