2017 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Yeah, I just meant broad categories. ... leadoff hitters / outfielders / fast players. Ichiro and Henderson were obviously different players. It's just a broad category I had in mind. For a more direct comparison I could have said Lou Brock. I just wanted to keep it to recent players that in my opinion were Hall of Famers. And I was trying to distinguish from the more typical power hitting outfielder.

I do think Ichiro is a no-brainer Hall of Famer, and that he was a much better player than Kenny Lofton. For me, that isn't even a conversation. I also don't think Rickey Henderson was that much better than Ichiro, if he was better at all. They have different attributes, so it's really a half a dozen of this thing. I watched way too many games of Henderson loafing after fly balls and not running hard on balls that he could have beaten out -- it just knocks him down a peg for me, because it was the norm a lot of the time with Henderson.

 

I think they were closer in terms of talent than you are saying. Henderson played 25 MLB seasons. Ichiro 16. It's a huge difference when you are looking at the compiled statistical lines. But yeah, of course. ... Henderson hit for more power (although it really isn't what makes Henderson a Hall of Famer), and yes, he stole a boatload of bases (in part because some of the teams, and the managers he was playing for allowed him to run whenever he wanted -- something that you saw in 1982 that you didn't see by the 1990s; that is not taking anything away from Henderson, who was the greatest base stealer of all time). And yes, he was great at getting on base -- drawing walks.

But if you want to cherry pick stats to make a case, well, Henderson never had a 200 hit season -- he was never even close to 200 hits. Ichiro did it 10 seasons in a row, and had 262 hits one season. Ichiro, despite coming to MLB when he was 27, got to the 3,000 hit milestone -- which is remarkable, and he had as many hits as Henderson even though he played only 2/3 as many seasons as Henderson. Ichiro was just a better contact hitter, and he was also a much better, and more consistent fielder.

I am not quite looking at them that way, though -- trying to find some statistic that fits an argument. They are both Hall of Famers in my book. I don't think you can do a straight comparison in any sort of apples to apples way, because 1) They played in slightly different eras (and the game changed a bit between the 1980s and 1990s when they both were in their primes), 2) they played under different circumstances (Ichiro could never have run the way Henderson was allowed to, even if he wanted to -- even if Henderson was the greatest base stealer of all time).

I just think they are both Hall of Famers. For different reasons. The one major negative I see with Henderson was what I pointed out -- he sometimes seemed to play like he didn't give a shit. I always found it too bad, because he was such a great player when he wanted to be.

 

Guess that is a legit opinion, if you believe it. I just think Ichiro was a ridiculously good hitter -- as in putting the bat on the ball for base hits. He was in a class that Henderson just wasn't in my opinion. To say that Ichiro's peak was average for Henderson -- Ichiro excelled at a few things in a way that was well beyond Henderson's ability. Ichiro batted .350 or above 4 times, and had 10 200 hit seasons in a row. Henderson was never anywhere near that kind of contact hitter (just watching him, or "numbers" wise). At times, Henderson was actually too much of free swinger who missed a lot -- I thought he got more disciplined as his career went on, though. Ichiro was also a much better fielder -- he was actually a great fielder. Henderson was loafing around in the field a lot of the time -- at least during his years with the Yankees when I was watching a lot of him.

For his part, Henderson was obviously in a class as a base stealer that nobody else has been in -- Ichiro included (even though Ichiro could steal a base). Henderson was a master at drawing walks. And he had a knack for scoring runs -- he'd get on base any way he could, advance on a stolen base or by taking an extra base on a hit, and then be in good position to score.

I kind of go through a mental list like that, and yeah, we agree -- both Hall of Famers. It's not ridiculous to me for someone to think that Henderson was more of an all-time great. But to say that Ichiro's best was average for Henderson isn't something I really agree with -- not when Ichiro was flat out superior to Henderson at least a few things. Ichiro hit .372 with 262 hits one season. Henderson wasn't capable of that kind of thing, even if there was a way to normalize for the decade of difference between them.

 

Dunno, when someone tells me that Ichiro at his peak was average for Henderson, and I disagree and then point out some of what Ichiro did that Henderson couldn't and didn't do. ... I don't really think about it as "odd cherry picking" or really saying anything beyond a few factual things about Ichiro that I think made that a bit of unjustified hyperbole.

What argument am I making that doesn't hold up? I said that in MY opinion there wasn't as big a gap between Rickey Henderson and Ichiro as players to justify a "not even close" assessment. You don't agree, I guess. All I did was give my reasons for my opinion -- things that Ichiro did as a hitter and fielder that were getting lost in only pointing how great Henderson was.