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1919 White Sox documents to be sold

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by writing irish, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. writing irish

    writing irish Active Member

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16630801

    B-dub, please pick up the navy-pinstriped courtesy phone...
     
  2. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    Here's the auction site: http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=76398&LastLotListing=Lot%20Search%20List&CurrentRow=1#top

    Pretty cool close-up views of some of the documents. ChiTrib had an interesting story on this, too.

    I'm VERY, VERY interested to see what's all in there. The criminal trial documents were thought to be lost to history for good. Nobody's ever come close to finding them.
     
  3. Are these the confessions that were allegedly "stolen" during the trial?
    If they can prove the provenance, this is a major find.
     
  4. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    No, the "confessions" -- Jackson's and Cicotte's, at least -- have been out since 1988. Alfred Austrian's old law firm released them when the 8MO movie came out. They're readily available on the Internet (try blackbetsy.com.)

    Jackson's confession doesn't really prove a damn thing -- he contradicts himself so much that it's hard to tell what was the truth, what he was coached to say by Austrian, and what he was babbling on about because he was allegedly drunk when he spoke to the GJ.

    And his 1920 GJ confession is also contradicted quite a bit by his 1924 deposition (at the back-pay trial in Milwaukee), when he was definitely sober and had independent counsel -- i.e., not coached by Comiskey's personal lawyer.
     
  5. Starman

    Starman Well-Known Member

    Exhibit #4 lends credence to the account in Bill Veeck's "The Hustler's Handbook" which gave some background on the internal infighting in the American League between Ban Johnson and Charles Comiskey. At the time, Comiskey, Frazee and Ruppert -- probably the three most powerful owners in the AL -- were threatening to break off from the AL and apply for admission to the NL, which would have left baseball with one 11-team league.

    Hard to imagine it would have ever happened -- McGraw was still the strong man of the NL, and the last thing he would ever have wanted would be the Yankees competing against him in his own league.

    The commissioner system evolved from this dispute. Originally the idea was that baseball would be run by a 3-member comission, with one member elected from the AL, one from the NL, and one independent. Eventually it was realized the two league commissioners would cancel each other out, so the decision was made to go with one independent comissioner with (theoretically) absolute power.
     
  6. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    BuckDub, I know this is a simplistic question. Just curious since you know so much about the Black Sox... What do you think is the truth with regard to Jackson?
     
  7. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    I think it's a complicated truth. Not quite as black and white as "he took the money, so he's guilty," although it's quite clear he took the money. It's also quite clear that he didn't have much, if anything, to do with the Fix. I think that's the truth. He took the envelope with the cash, alledgedly tried to give it to Comiskey after the Series (he definitely wrote a letter to Comiskey to request a meeting), then gave the money to his sister to pay for hospital bills. Did he play to lose? I don't think so. The problem, as I see it, is context. Rightly or wrongly, "fixing" series, games or even at-bats was an accepted practice in 1919. Walter Johnson was well-known for "grooving" pitches to friends like Sam Crawford and the like. Cobb and Speaker had fixed a game three weeks before the 1919 Series began. Everyone in baseball knew. So to apply our morals today to what Jackson did then ... makes it complicated. Because that time was different.
     
  8. Tom Petty

    Tom Petty Guest

    sorry guys, gotta bookmark this one.
     
  9. lantaur

    lantaur Active Member

    I posted this back in 2006, but here it is again: Jackson's game-by-game performance in the 1919 World Series (thanks to retrosheet.org):

    Game 1 - Reds 9, White Sox 1
    Jackson 0-for-4, run scored
    - reached on error in first, eventually scored on a Gandil single
    - grounded out with no one on in fourth
    - with first & second and one out in the sixth, grounded out to first (score was 6-1 at the time)
    - flied out to lead off ninth

    Game 2 - Reds 4, White Sox 2
    Jackson 3-for-4, struck out
    - doubled to lead off second, went to third on bunt, failed to score on Gandil's grounder to short (score was 0-0)
    - in the fourth, followed a Buck Weaver single with a single. Advanced on a bunt. Weaver was out at home on a 3-2 FC by Gandil (who then stole second). Risberg popped out.
    - In sixth, with Weaver on second, was called out on strikes
    - In eighth, two-out single.

    Game 3 - White Sox 3, Reds 0 (Dickie Kerr's shutout)
    Jackson 2-for-3, scored, caught stealing
    - Singled to lead off second. Advanced to third on an error by Fisher (Felsch to second) then scored on a Gandil single.
    - Bunted runners over in third (can you imagine a No. 4 hitter doing that today?)
    - In sixth, singled then was caught stealing. (Felsch, the next batter, did the exact same thing).

    Game 4 - Reds 2, White Sox 0
    Jackson 1-for-4, strikeout
    - Doubled to lead off second. Advanced on a bunt. But didn't score as Gandil popped up; Risberg walked and stole second; Schalk walked and Cicotte grounded out.
    - With two out in third, reached on Rath error.
    - Grounded out to lead off sixth
    - Struck out with one out in eighth (one of Ring's two strikeouts - the other being Gandil)

    Game 5 - Reds 5, White Sox 0
    Jackson 0-for-4
    - In first, with runners on first and third, popped out to third
    - With one out in fourth, grounded out
    - Led off seventh with ground out
    - With two out in ninth, Weaver tripled, but Jackson grounded out.

    -- It is here, if I recall correctly, that the players wanted their money and decided (well, not Gandil), to stop the fix.

    Game 6 - White Sox 5, Reds 4 (10 inn.)
    Jackson 2-for-4, 1 run, 1 RBI, walk + outfield assist
    - In first, with two out and man on first popped out
    - In fourth, with one out popped out
    - Bottom of the fourth, threw out Rath trying to score on a fly
    - In sixth, Weaver led off with a double, Jackson then singled him in (making the score Reds 4, White Sox 2). Jackson then scored on Felsch's double.
    - In eighth, led off with a walk. Went to second on a Gandil walk after Felsch flew out. Was thrown out at third after trying to advance on Risberg's fly out to center.
    - In 10th, with Weaver on second, bunt singled. (Gandil would knock in the go-ahead run - the movie Eight Men Out made it seem like the game-winner. But Chicago was the road team and Risberg lined into a DP to end the 10th)

    Game 7 - White Sox 4, Reds 1 (Cicotte's game "above board")
    Jackson 2-for-4, two RBI
    - In first, with two out, singled in Shano Collins
    - In third, with two out, singled in Shano Collins - these were Chicago's first two runs
    - In fifth, with one out, reached on an error to load the bases
    - In seventh, grounded out

    Game 8 - Reds 10, White Sox 5 (Lefty Williams actually got the first batter out, then surrendered four straight hits and was yanked)
    Jackson 2-for-5, two runs, three RBI, double, home run
    - In first, with runners on second and third, struck out (as did Weaver before him and Felsch after)
    - In third, with two out, homered (made it 5-1 Reds)
    - In sixth, with man on first, flied out (it was 9-1 at this point)
    - In eighth, with one out, doubled in two runs

    Again, box scores don't tell the intent of a person, but knowing what we know, it looks like a guy who helped fix games to me. Making key outs in losses, playing well in Cicotte's non-fix and picking up half his RBI in a blowout loss in Game 8.
     
  10. Tom Petty

    Tom Petty Guest

    how does that look like a guy who helped fix games?
     
  11. Starman

    Starman Well-Known Member

    As much as offensive performance, Jackson's defense was supposed to be one of the keys to the fix -- supposedly he allowed several key extra-base hits by "moderately misplaying" (not flat-out booting) balls in the outfield that the Reds turned into runs.

    You'd have to check the play-by-play sheets to get a handle on that.
     
  12. lantaur

    lantaur Active Member

    Well, he didn't exactly perform all that well in game the White Sox lost. Again, we weren't there, there's no TV footage, so we don't know how "fishy" some of these were, but can only look at them on hindsight.

    I forgot to mention the part about his fielding. I don't think there's any way to really know how he did - throws off base, getting to balls slowly or playing things just right.
     
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