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2017 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Della9250, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. cisforkoke

    cisforkoke Well-Known Member

    I thought, and still think, the knock on Raines was not the performance between the lines. It was the performance with lines.
     
  2. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    Other than steals -- which he led the league in four times -- he just didn't stand out consistently in any other area. Everyone likes to cite his on-base percentage, but he only led the league once. Never had more than 100 walks. Never led the league in walks or hits. He had one batting title. One time leading the league in doubles. Twice in runs. Very good all-around player (except for defense), but just falls short for me. Also, the high stolen base percentage...maybe he should have tried to steal more often. Maybe he didn't take enough chances. JK...
     
  3. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    Other than the thing he was best at doing, he wasn't anything special?
     
  4. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    Yes, thanks for the close reading
     
  5. outofplace

    outofplace Well-Known Member

    You are quite welcome.
     
  6. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    He was in the top six in OBP six times. Add in the 50 to 90 extra bases he got for his team by stealing in that time, those years look a lot better.

    I think we're seeing a reflection of the Moneyball generation in that there are certain stats that just don't matter to people anymore. But they did matter, a lot, before the steroid era when the HR leaders were topping out in the high 30s.
     
  7. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    Vince Coleman led the league in steals six times. Speed is awesome. Speed didn't make Tim Raines a good fielder, though. And it didn't allow him to lead the league in triples even once. In fact, the highest he ever finished in triples was fifth. But he did lead the league in doubles -- once. Other than that, he never once finished in the top 5. Great stealer, great all-around player. Just falls a little short for me.

    EDIT: Not sure what I was looking at, but that triples stuff is wrong. He did finished second and third in triples in back to back years. But he never led!

    OK, I've had my say on Tim Raines. Obviously more than 86 percent of voters disagree with me. Again, it's not like he's Phil Rizzuto getting elected.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  8. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    Well, if Vince Coleman (career OPS .668) is your comp, I can see why we're off the rails here.
     
    sgreenwell likes this.
  9. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    i was just making mention of steals as a category. coleman obviously was not the player raines was, but he was sure as shit fast. the 1980s was a fun decade to watch the steals. part of the game that has definitely diminished.
     
  10. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    I think you're kind of cherry-picking with the "never led the league!" stuff though. He probably didn't lead the league in many of the speed categories because his career, in an oddity, overlapped with the greatest speed player of all-time, and when other guys like Vince Coleman were around. Subtract his CS from his steals, and he essentially got 650 "extra" bases over the course of his career. That's pretty good. Between his hits and BBs, Tony Gwynn got on base about 4,000 times. Raines is at about 3,935, plus he stole a shitload of bases. One guy got in immediately, while one guy waited.
     
    LongTimeListener likes this.
  11. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member

    Tell ALL your friends, they can go my way.
     
  12. CD Boogie

    CD Boogie Well-Known Member

    the comparison to gwynn is a non-starter for me. Yes, the total on base numbers are similar, but Gwynn led the league in hitting seven times. He also batted .372 with a .547 slugging percentage when he was 37 and finished 6th in the MVP voting. Raines didn't receive a single MVP vote after 1989. Not one. But he played for 13 more years.

    Gwynn had almost twice as many walks (790) as strikeouts in his career (434). He put the ball in play. Their careers are not comparable for me other than the total number of times getting on base. That, to me, has been the essence of cherry-picking stats. Total times getting on base. He played three more years than Gwynn. How has that become the go-to stat? Seems odd to me.
     
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