Tim Hudson: Hall of Famer?

1) He was hardly terrible down the stretch, and you will know that if you watched every damned inning. You'll also understand why Morris -- not Charles Nagy or Melido Perez or Kevin Appier -- got MVP votes that season. ... more than any starting pitcher did. And anyone who doesn't treat this like a strat-o-matic game understands why. The year before he had been the ace of the team that won the world series (Minnesota), and he won the world series MVP. He opted out of his contract for more money and went to Toronto, where for the THIRD time in his career he was the ace of a world series winning team. Context matters. Two years in a row at that point of his career (late 30s), he goes to teams as a free agent and they win the world series with him as the ace pitching a ton of innings that keeps the bullpen rested and him keeping his team in games to the point where they just win a lot.

2) I didn't say anything about ERA+. Dick Whitman was the one who threw the contrived and random measure out there as if it meaningfully tells you anything. Tell me how you calculated Jack Morris' ERA+, if this is where you want to go. Or Tim Hudson's. Or anyone else's. Give me an explanation of how you calculated it, and in the specific case of Morris (or anyone else), I am curious about how you adjusted for his ballpark. Just give me the detailed calculation and I'll try to follow along. Then, if you can, please explain why I should accept that that adjustment is statistically meaningful, rather than 1,000s of other subjective adjustments I could make that might tell me player A is better than player B (or in the case of another "adjustment" might have me making the exact opposite conclusion). The words, "adjusted" anything should raise red flags. But even if it doesn't for you, fine, tell me how to compute Jack Morris' ERA+ please. Then, maybe we can look at it and determine how meaningful it is.

3) I didn't say anything about Morris win total or 93Devil.

 

I'd tell WHY I think they made a poor argument. If you think what I've said is poorly reasoned, why not tell me WHY rather than a drive-by post like that?

At the end of the day, one thing I do know. Jack Morris was a legitimate hall of fame debate -- the voting bore that out. Tim Hudson won't be.

 

They are not numbers. They are people being judged on athletic performance. That isn't quantifiable down to a simple numerical measure or measures. They are also from different eras, so if you insist on picking subjective numerical measures to argue for one, you can't even meaningfully compare them head to head without some sort of contrivance (that makes your "numbers based case" just as subjective as my opinion). These discussions are subjective. Pitchers aren't simple, easily quantifiable price points, for example. You're not lining up third graders by height. That is why I am not making a "numbers based case," about something that is largely subjective. Even the numbers you choose to make your numbers based case, create a subjective argument. Hall of fame debates are opinions. How was Jack Morris regarded during his time? How was Tim Hudson regarded during his? Were they considered the best, or among the best starters?

And subjectively (i.e. -- my opinion), I don't see how anyone who saw Jack Morris throughout his career and saw Tim Hudson throughout his career could conclude that this is even much of a discussion. I am certain that the hall of fame candidacies of each will bear out what I am suggesting.

 

ERA+ is an "adjusted" ERA. I could skip right to the junk statistics you are dealing with whenever you take a simple divisible calculation and subjectively "adjust" it (as opposed to thousands of other adjustments you might have made). But I am not even doing that yet. I want to understand the measure. You just told me how simple it is, but you didn't do as I asked and provide the calculation, so we can take a look at it. Forget whether it meaningfully tells you anything about Jack Morris as a pitcher. Please just tell me what Jack Morris' career ERA+ was using your measure of adjusted ERA, and then show me how you calculated that number in his case -- I'm particularly interested in the ballpark adjustment I assume you will make to come up with a number. How can you tell me something meaningfully compares two pitchers who didn't pitch at the same time, and not even show me the calculation behind that comparison?