Author Topic: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title  (Read 5592 times)

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Offline zagoshe

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2011, 08:33:15 PM »
I agree getting Anthony made them better.

I think they gave up more than they probably had to. And I think that was Dolan, and whatever stoop advises him. If Donnie Walsh had been running the show, they might still have Raymond Felton.

They won't win it this year. But now, with two bonafide superstars in the fold - adding a Chris Paul or Derron Williams or some other big-time point guard in the offseason - which is the plan -- will make them virtually unstoppable.
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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2011, 08:42:31 PM »
Had been debating with the wife about where Carmelo ranks among NBA players. We eventually agreed he was top 10, not top 5. So, I'm tooling around the Internet and I click on ESPN's web page. Now I've never read a Bill Simmons column, but he's got one sitting there in which he ranks the NBA's top 50. What the hell, I figure. I can always go to confession Sunday. So I click on the first of two parts. I see it starts with 50. I figure, "Don't need to scroll through these." I click off that and open part 2. Scroll all the way through. No Melo. "This can't be right," I think. Scroll again, a little slower. No Melo. Scroll one more time, thinking, "There's no way he's not in the top 25, right?" Still nothing. I click back on part 1. Scroll a little and notice he's at freaking No. 34! Now, I don't follow the NBA that much, and I've heard, in between insults, that Simmons knows his shit when it comes to professional hoops. What gives? Most people would rank him in the top 10. Why the vast discrepancy from someone who follows the league so obsessively?


Offline BYH

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2011, 08:51:06 PM »
Had been debating with the wife about where Carmelo ranks among NBA players. We eventually agreed he was top 10, not top 5. So, I'm tooling around the Internet and I click on ESPN's web page. Now I've never read a Bill Simmons column, but he's got one sitting there in which he ranks the NBA's top 50. What the hell, I figure. I can always go to confession Sunday.

"Father I participated in premarital relations with my wife."

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"I impregnated her."

"Oh my that is really very serious, but you will be absolved with the Act of Contrition, seven Hail Marys and four Our Fathers."

"I also read a Bill Simmons piece."

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Offline Double Down

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2011, 09:14:57 PM »
The Simmons column is based on trade value, not ability. Because Melo is in the final year of his deal, he's a particularly flexible chip to move, which is what Simmons is basing it on.

By the way, here is the truth on the Kobe pre-draft stuff. He would only work out for certain teams, and Arn Tellem told people not to take him if he had not worked out for them because Kobe wasn't going to play for them, but later both Kobe and Tellem admitted it was a bluff and he would have played anywhere.
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Offline Piotr Rasputin

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2011, 09:50:37 PM »
The Simmons column is based on trade value, not ability. Because Melo is in the final year of his deal, he's a particularly flexible chip to move, which is what Simmons is basing it on.


Wouldn't that rank Anthony higher than No. 34, then?

Anyway, YGBFKM, top 10? Players better than Carmelo Anthony in the NBA (no particular order, with "better:" defined as some combination of more clutch, better defender, multi-faceted game, "I fear him," "I think he would play on one leg before Carmelo would," etc.):

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Pau Gasol
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin

Maybe Paul Pierce and Steve Nash. Rajon Rondo depending on what kind of offense the team runs.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2011, 09:55:12 PM »
Had been debating with the wife about where Carmelo ranks among NBA players. We eventually agreed he was top 10, not top 5. So, I'm tooling around the Internet and I click on ESPN's web page. Now I've never read a Bill Simmons column, but he's got one sitting there in which he ranks the NBA's top 50. What the hell, I figure. I can always go to confession Sunday. So I click on the first of two parts. I see it starts with 50. I figure, "Don't need to scroll through these." I click off that and open part 2. Scroll all the way through. No Melo. "This can't be right," I think. Scroll again, a little slower. No Melo. Scroll one more time, thinking, "There's no way he's not in the top 25, right?" Still nothing. I click back on part 1. Scroll a little and notice he's at freaking No. 34! Now, I don't follow the NBA that much, and I've heard, in between insults, that Simmons knows his shit when it comes to professional hoops. What gives? Most people would rank him in the top 10. Why the vast discrepancy from someone who follows the league so obsessively?

You need to re-read the criteria for that column.   It was not a ranking of the 50 best players, but rather a ranking of each players' "trade value", which takes into account other factors like contract length and amount (if overpaid it diminishes your value, underpaid it increases it, etc.), future upside and age.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 09:58:48 PM by Stoney »

Offline BYH

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2011, 10:13:43 PM »
Anyway, YGBFKM, top 10? Players better than Carmelo Anthony in the NBA (no particular order, with "better:" defined as some combination of more clutch, better defender, multi-faceted game, "I fear him," "I think he would play on one leg before Carmelo would," etc.):

I see what you did there.
Tragedy blows through your life like a tornado, uprooting everything, creating chaos. You wait for the dust to settle & then you choose. You can live in the wreckage & pretend it's still the mansion you remember. Or you can crawl from the rubble and slowly rebuild.--Veronica Mars

Offline Den1983

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2011, 11:20:32 PM »
Carmelo is essentially a wing version of Amare. All offense, pretty efficient shooting numbers, no defense, no rebounding, doesn't make teammates better.

Both are ball-stoppers.

I'm very interested to see how this will play out for them. I could definitely see a lot of fail here.

The Knicks needed another playmaker, preferably on both ends of the floor. They did not, however, need another scorer.
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Offline 93Devil

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2011, 04:50:15 AM »
The Simmons column is based on trade value, not ability. Because Melo is in the final year of his deal, he's a particularly flexible chip to move, which is what Simmons is basing it on.


Wouldn't that rank Anthony higher than No. 34, then?

Anyway, YGBFKM, top 10? Players better than Carmelo Anthony in the NBA (no particular order, with "better:" defined as some combination of more clutch, better defender, multi-faceted game, "I fear him," "I think he would play on one leg before Carmelo would," etc.):

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Pau Gasol
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin

Maybe Paul Pierce and Steve Nash. Rajon Rondo depending on what kind of offense the team runs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/basketball/men/boxscore?gameId=834

When the USA put the starting five out on the floor in 2008 for the Gold Medal Game, Anthony was one of the five. To me, that says a lot.

I think that now he is on a more national stage, people will realize how great of a player he can be.

Remember he also led Syracuse to the 2003 NCAA Title.

I didn't like the trade at first, but I think Anthony in NYC will be a lot of fun.
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Offline shockey

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2011, 07:00:27 AM »
i have zero insight or opinion regarding where 'melo currently ranks on the nba landscape. i am, however, of the opinion that a precious few have his raw skills and, that at 26, may yet have come close to scratching the surface of his 'potential.' i have no clue what his desire-level is, whether he is open to allowing himself to be 'coached up' or is already beyond that point.

what i sure as heck do know is that 'melo can still become the 'all-around' player on both ends of the floor most folks seem to agree he can be. i'd like to believe that 26 is too young of an age for any star to be pigeonholed or labeled as one thing or as someone who cannot still improve.

those who contend this was not a marvelous deal for the nix are either blind, don't understand the game or loathe the nix/n.y. sports teams too much to see this clearly. does 'melo make the nix a title contender? heck, no.   i won't consider them that until they at least add a solid presence at center and probably a top point guard (i'll leave it to all you nba experts to tell me if billups remains a title-calibre player). oh, and their bench must be replenished now.

most importantly, though, they'll need another coach before i can take them seriously. d'antoni's teams are two tons of fun to watch in the regular season but destined to fail before ever reaching the finals.

but that should not matter to nix nation yet, although in our microwave world we want to see our heroes go from zero to 60 in a nanosecond. and make no mistake, this franchise had been stuck in the mud for years until this season. long-lost fans only recently began paying attention again. 'melo adds yet another key, star ingredient to the mix, a promise of much quality entertainment to come for n.y. basketball junkies (i was not among those who embraced those riley-ewing-oakley-starks teams; neither their style nor personality were 'huggable'). i'm not one who demands an instant championship when a team finally takes steps in the right direction. i enjoy watching the final pieces put into place in the year or two leading up to true title contention.

n.y. basketball has been starved for so long. i just hope fans can chill a bit and enjoy the process. the entire ride should be joyful, not only the final lap. it's sad how greedy and impatient fans are in our talk-radio, microwave-driven world. often i wish we'd all slow down a bit and savor the aroma.

Offline Mizzougrad96

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2011, 07:03:00 AM »
I disagree - the Knicks now have two of the best 10 or 12 players in the game. They are absolutely closer to a title.

The belief is also that Anthony will lure Chris Paul or another top-tier FA to NYC. I'm not sure if Paul is a FA after this season or next season.
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Offline Ryan_Sonner

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2011, 07:07:30 AM »
I guess it doesn't matter now since there's going to be a new CBA soon, but does anyone know the Knicks' financial numbers now in terms of cap room?
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Offline derwood

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2011, 07:07:52 AM »
Next.  Summer of 2012.  

Offline derwood

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2011, 07:08:48 AM »
I guess it doesn't matter now since there's going to be a new CBA soon, but does anyone know the Knicks' financial numbers now in terms of cap room?

Plenty in 2012 to add another max contract.

Offline Mizzougrad96

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2011, 07:13:23 AM »
I guess it doesn't matter now since there's going to be a new CBA soon, but does anyone know the Knicks' financial numbers now in terms of cap room?

Plenty in 2012 to add another max contract.

Granted, I thought LeBron would be a lock to wind up in NYC, so I guess we now get a year of "Will Chris Paul go to NY? Will Deron Williams go to NY?"
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Offline Ryan_Sonner

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2011, 07:15:24 AM »
Did I see where Deron Williams has publicly said he's signing with the Knicks next year, or was I mistaken?
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Offline Pancamo

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2011, 07:21:36 AM »
I think Carmelo is a slightly better version of Glen Robinson.  A great mid-range game, took team to conference finals and doesn't have the skills to make others around him better.  Most of his shots come from isolation as does Stoudemire so there is going be a lot of standing around watching.

The Knicks were not making the Finals prior to the trade and won't in the future.

As for Chris Paul and Deron Williams going to NY it all comes down to the hard cap.  If it comes in at $50-$52 million, Toney Douglas is going to get a lot minutes at point.

Offline zagoshe

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2011, 07:39:42 AM »
I think Carmelo is a slightly better version of Glen Robinson.  A great mid-range game, took team to conference finals and doesn't have the skills to make others around him better.  Most of his shots come from isolation as does Stoudemire so there is going be a lot of standing around watching.

The Knicks were not making the Finals prior to the trade and won't in the future.

As for Chris Paul and Deron Williams going to NY it all comes down to the hard cap.  If it comes in at $50-$52 million, Toney Douglas is going to get a lot minutes at point.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist - but I have a hard time believing that the NBA won't make Chris Paul or Deron Williams an option for New York.
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Offline Ryan_Sonner

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2011, 07:42:58 AM »
ok, so Deron Williams to the Nets now?
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Offline zagoshe

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2011, 07:55:37 AM »
Carmelo is essentially a wing version of Amare. All offense, pretty efficient shooting numbers, no defense, no rebounding, doesn't make teammates better.

Both are ball-stoppers.

I'm very interested to see how this will play out for them. I could definitely see a lot of fail here.

The Knicks needed another playmaker, preferably on both ends of the floor. They did not, however, need another scorer.

I disagree - you forget who is coaching them. If they get a point guard like Paul or Williams, which, they will, you know they will  - in that guys system this team could average 115 points a night.

They will be a bitch to deal with for anyone.

Now, we could sit here and say that system hasn't won anything ever since the 1980's but it has produced some very, very good basketball teams.
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Offline mb

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2011, 07:59:38 AM »
ok, so Deron Williams to the Nets now?

Apparently Bud Adams is running the show in Salt Lake City.

Offline shockey

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Re: Nuggets, Knicks make trade that brings neither closer to a title
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2011, 08:17:19 AM »
I think Carmelo is a slightly better version of Glen Robinson.  A great mid-range game, took team to conference finals and doesn't have the skills to make others around him better.  Most of his shots come from isolation as does Stoudemire so there is going be a lot of standing around watching.


man, a lot of folks here seem to be evaluating talent with their revisionist heart, not basketball acumen. amazing to me how many of you view 'melo these days. only slightly better than glenn robinson (who was a terrific scorer, don't get me wrong)? really?

um, okay.

keep trying to convince yourselves 'melo is just your run-of-the-mill hoops star. lol.

now, great addition for nets by rebounding from 'melodrama by landing deron williams. he's probably the best point guard in a league chock-full of an incredible number of 'young franchise' point guards.

do we know yet that deron has signed a contract extension? that's the key to this being a no-brainer move by the nyets. only thing nyet fans need fear is that there's no extension to possibly set up deron to join amare and 'melo across da river in a couple of years to turn the nix into 'miami north.'

the nyets better get deron a legit running mate or two by then. just as a ny/nj hoops guy -- i covered the nix and the nyets for the daily snooze in the '82-83 season -- the possibility of watching deron go head-to-head with chris paul for a few years.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 08:39:25 AM by shockey »


Offline Mizzougrad96

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