Topic: Writer Cat Fight

[YankeeFan]

A lot of you are ignoring the bigger issue here, and it isn't the art-versus-trade discussion that Jones has attempted to spin in order to cover up his wrong-headedness.

It's this:

"If you don’t care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

I never would have jumped into the fray if not for the above graf. Who the fuck is Chris Jones to tell somebody that they will be a failure if they don't share his gnawing insecurity? That's bullshit. I could let the original issue slide. I think his way of thinking is pathetic. He doesn't. Whatever. But when you start telling impressionable young writers that they will be failures if they don't share a similar philosophy, you cross a line. Chris, you still have not addressed this issue. I know several writers with your exact job, writers who you desperately want to be grouped with, who do not give a flying fuck if they win an award for a story. And since they are twice as talented as you, and can by no reasonable measure be considered "failures," I can only conclude that the above sentences -- Again, "If you don’t care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure" -- are complete fucking bullshit.

I'm assuming you will not address this, and that you will fade back into your cyber Neverland, never to be heard from again, wrapped in the warm bubble of the kingdom you have constructed for yourself, content to preach your warped world view to aspiring writers and grad students without any fear of somebody calling you on your immense bullshit.

Just know that silence in a court of law is similar to silence on a internet message board. 

I'm not sure why you would get so worked up by that statement.

So, he thinks that & you don't. Big deal.

Is some impressionable writer going to read that and decide to walk away from the field because they don't feel that way and assume Jones must be right?

I think that guy would be a loser.

[MrHavercamp]

Can I get a ruling on the floor for the appropriate response to being called Jayson Blair?

Am I allowed to be "angry and aggressive?" Am I allowed to take umbrage? Am I allowed to make a correction?

Or would I appear then to be thin skinned? Or tacky? Or insecure?

Should I just let it stand? Should I just be okay with some failure of a human being writing that I make stuff up?

Please let me know. Thank you.

Jones, I haven't been with you on this one, but that wasn't right. Nobody should be compared to Blair unless they tried to do what he did. So, yes, you can respond (even angrily) to that one. Please don't yell at young Michelle Dean again, however.

[typefitter]

You're very brave, daemon, a regular folk hero. Your crusade against my blog should earn you medals, totems erected in your honor. You jumped into the fray like a regular trenchman, your bayonet flashing, your blood pumping.

You're calling me pathetic? Jesus. But here you go. This is what you're asking for, and I aim to please:

"If you don't care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

You seem to be confusing the word "or" with the word "and."

If you don't care whether your writing earns any of those things—and I'm talking about journalism here, not poetry, not screenwriting, not literature, but journalism—then you will not make it. That's a fact. That's a pure unavoidable fact of this business. Because it's a business. It's market-driven. It's customer-driven. That's how it works. And if your supremely talented friends tell you—when you beg them for crumbs of wisdom, which they brush off their table for you—that they have somehow made it without giving a shit about any of those things, they are either aberrations or liars.

Now, let's get to the heart of the matter: you. I can't be certain why you didn't make it, because clearly you didn't—you know writers with my exact job, but you're not one of them, are you?

Luckily, though, I have an idea.

Maybe your friends are twice as talented as me, but I'll bet a considerable sum of money (because I care about money; I'd rather have it than not, which I know makes me crazy) that you're not one fucking eighteenth as good as the Mystery Them.

I would also bet every penny I've ever earned that you would give a nut to have what I have.

I'm sorry you're so sad. But daemon, don't blame me for your failings. Don't blame me that the blog I write for fun has a larger audience than you'll ever know.

Oh, I know, brave, sweet daemon, your feelings were stung by what I wrote, and you're trying to make excuses—as you no doubt have for your entire life—as to why you didn't make it.

I'll tell you why. Because you aren't good enough.

And I know you're going to write, Oh no, I have made it! I'm really happy with my life! I'm better than you even! Look how angry you are! Look how insecure you are!

But here I am, and I know you're not anywhere close to me. I know you're just another anonymous Internet gangster, like jgorden, your partner in pussydom, trying to make yourself feel better, trying to prove to all your online friends that you have big balls when it comes to picking fights when you know you'll never have to show your face or your name.

But they know about you, too, daemon. We all know. We all know you didn't make it. We all know you advocated lying on this thread, the issue that you never addressed again.

We all know you're a coward. We all know you're a twat.

Now, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go sit with my wife on the couch and watch a movie. And after, I'm going to go to bed, and I'm going to wake up, and I'm going to be me, and you're still going to be you, and that will make me happier than you can ever imagine.

Thank you.

[MartinonMTV2]

You're very brave, daemon, a regular folk hero. Your crusade against my blog should earn you medals, totems erected in your honor. You jumped into the fray like a regular trenchman, your bayonet flashing, your blood pumping.

You're calling me pathetic? Jesus. But here you go. This is what you're asking for, and I aim to please:

"If you don't care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

You seem to be confusing the word "or" with the word "and."

If you don't care whether your writing earns any of those things—and I'm talking about journalism here, not poetry, not screenwriting, not literature, but journalism—then you will not make it. That's a fact. That's a pure unavoidable fact of this business. Because it's a business. It's market-driven. It's customer-driven. That's how it works. And if your supremely talented friends tell you—when you beg them for crumbs of wisdom, which they brush off their table for you—that they have somehow made it without giving a shit about any of those things, they are either aberrations or liars.

Now, let's get to the heart of the matter: you. I can't be certain why you didn't make it, because clearly you didn't—you know writers with my exact job, but you're not one of them, are you?

Luckily, though, I have an idea.

Maybe your friends are twice as talented as me, but I'll bet a considerable sum of money (because I care about money; I'd rather have it than not, which I know makes me crazy) that you're not one fucking eighteenth as good as the Mystery Them.

I would also bet every penny I've ever earned that you would give a nut to have what I have.

I'm sorry you're so sad. But daemon, don't blame me for your failings. Don't blame me that the blog I write for fun has a larger audience than you'll ever know.

Oh, I know, brave, sweet daemon, your feelings were stung by what I wrote, and you're trying to make excuses—as you no doubt have for your entire life—as to why you didn't make it.

I'll tell you why. Because you aren't good enough.

And I know you're going to write, Oh no, I have made it! I'm really happy with my life! I'm better than you even! Look how angry you are! Look how insecure you are!

But here I am, and I know you're not anywhere close to me. I know you're just another anonymous Internet gangster, like jgorden, your partner in pussydom, trying to make yourself feel better, trying to prove to all your online friends that you have big balls when it comes to picking fights when you know you'll never have to show your face or your name.

But they know about you, too, daemon. We all know. We all know you didn't make it. We all know you advocated lying on this thread, the issue that you never addressed again.

We all know you're a coward. We all know you're a twat.

Now, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go sit with my wife on the couch and watch a movie. And after, I'm going to go to bed, and I'm going to wake up, and I'm going to be me, and you're still going to be you, and that will make me happier than you can ever imagine.

Thank you.

You're a dick. Thanks for proving it.

[YankeeFan]

Well, now we really have a cat fight.

I figured that because you took your time before responding you wouldn't lash out.

I was wrong on that one.

[daemon]

You're very brave, daemon, a regular folk hero. Your crusade against my blog should earn you medals, totems erected in your honor. You jumped into the fray like a regular trenchman, your bayonet flashing, your blood pumping.

You're calling me pathetic? Jesus. But here you go. This is what you're asking for, and I aim to please:

"If you don't care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

You seem to be confusing the word "or" with the word "and."

If you don't care whether your writing earns any of those things—and I'm talking about journalism here, not poetry, not screenwriting, not literature, but journalism—then you will not make it. That's a fact. That's a pure unavoidable fact of this business. Because it's a business. It's market-driven. It's customer-driven. That's how it works. And if your supremely talented friends tell you—when you beg them for crumbs of wisdom, which they brush off their table for you—that they have somehow made it without giving a shit about any of those things, they are either aberrations or liars.

Now, let's get to the heart of the matter: you. I can't be certain why you didn't make it, because clearly you didn't—you know writers with my exact job, but you're not one of them, are you?

Luckily, though, I have an idea.

Maybe your friends are twice as talented as me, but I'll bet a considerable sum of money (because I care about money; I'd rather have it than not, which I know makes me crazy) that you're not one fucking eighteenth as good as the Mystery Them.

I would also bet every penny I've ever earned that you would give a nut to have what I have.

I'm sorry you're so sad. But daemon, don't blame me for your failings. Don't blame me that the blog I write for fun has a larger audience than you'll ever know.

Oh, I know, brave, sweet daemon, your feelings were stung by what I wrote, and you're trying to make excuses—as you no doubt have for your entire life—as to why you didn't make it.

I'll tell you why. Because you aren't good enough.

And I know you're going to write, Oh no, I have made it! I'm really happy with my life! I'm better than you even! Look how angry you are! Look how insecure you are!

But here I am, and I know you're not anywhere close to me. I know you're just another anonymous Internet gangster, like jgorden, your partner in pussydom, trying to make yourself feel better, trying to prove to all your online friends that you have big balls when it comes to picking fights when you know you'll never have to show your face or your name.

But they know about you, too, daemon. We all know. We all know you didn't make it. We all know you advocated lying on this thread, the issue that you never addressed again.

We all know you're a coward. We all know you're a twat.

Now, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go sit with my wife on the couch and watch a movie. And after, I'm going to go to bed, and I'm going to wake up, and I'm going to be me, and you're still going to be you, and that will make me happier than you can ever imagine.

Thank you.

I don't think I need to say anything anymore, bud. For a guy who prides himself on "honesty" and "truth," you don't seem to react very well when confronted with it. Someday, when I don't have a name protect, or no longer care about protecting it, I'll shoot you an email so you can measure yours against mine. Until then, I'll let you be the one who makes an ass out of yourself in public.

[secretariat]

Mission accomplished, Boom.

This thread makes me sad.

[Inky_Wretch]

For fuck's sake Jones, you just gave these trolls what they wanted with that post. They were trolling you, and you just paid them off.

[YGBFKM]

"If you don’t care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

I never would have jumped into the fray if not for the above graf. Who the fuck is Chris Jones to tell somebody that they will be a failure if they don't share his gnawing insecurity?

There's a point here. But, coming at it from another direction, I think the failure angle is a little too black and white, even for you, Chris. Maybe that's exactly how you feel. But have you ever told someone who was going through a difficult time that expressing their feelings might help? I'm guessing you have.

So, what of the person — let's say he's a journalist with a modicum of writing talent who at the time doesn't have a professional outlet for his creativity — who finds himself in a really bad spot. And one day, he decides to start writing. And through that writing, the fog starts to lift. It's a cathartic experience that helps him deal with a world he'd been trying to avoid. Eventually, a select few people see the work. But it never gains what anyone would call an audience, despite how much he puts into it, how much it helped change his life, how proud of it he is. Is that person a failure?

I ask in all seriousness. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I respect honesty, even if I don't always agree with the form it takes. I read your blog because it's interesting. I'd like to know what you think. Feel free to pm me if you don't want any response to clog up this thread.

[YankeeFan]

For fuck's sake Jones, you just gave these trolls what they wanted with that post. They were trolling you, and you just paid them off.

Yep.

[YGBFKM]

"If you don’t care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

I never would have jumped into the fray if not for the above graf. Who the fuck is Chris Jones to tell somebody that they will be a failure if they don't share his gnawing insecurity?

There's a point here. But, coming at it from another direction, I think the failure angle is a little too black and white, even for you, Chris. Maybe that's exactly how you feel. But have you ever told someone who was going through a difficult time that expressing their feelings might help? I'm guessing you have.

So, what of the person — let's say he's a journalist with a modicum of writing talent who at the time doesn't have a professional outlet for his creativity — who finds himself in a really bad spot. And one day, he decides to start writing. And through that writing, the fog starts to lift. It's a cathartic experience that helps him deal with a world he'd been trying to avoid. Eventually, a select few people see the work. But it never gains what anyone would call an audience, despite how much he puts into it, how much it helped change his life, how proud of it he is. Is that person a failure?

I ask in all seriousness. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I respect honesty, even if I don't always agree with the form it takes. I read your blog because it's interesting. I'd like to know what you think. Feel free to pm me if you don't want any response to clog up this thread.

Damnit, this is why I should never skip posts. I suppose you answered my question with the journalism business specifics.

[imjustagirl]

I wish I could rewind and not have read this page.

[MartinonMTV2]

For fuck's sake Jones, you just gave these trolls what they wanted with that post. They were trolling you, and you just paid them off.

Damn straight. Well, except for the part about trolling. It's amusing how people who are so f-ing certain they are right drop that in when they get proved wrong.

But the guy who apparently thinks he's greater than Shakespeare failed at staying above it all and proving how noble he is.

Face it, guy -- the article wasn't as great as you thought it was. Let that sink in -- not as great as you thought.

Now, move on. You know, like the rest of us do.

[YGBFKM]

But here I am, and I know you're not anywhere close to me. I know you're just another anonymous Internet gangster, like jgorden, your partner in pussydom, trying to make yourself feel better, trying to prove to all your online friends that you have big balls when it comes to picking fights when you know you'll never have to show your face or your name.

Inky, YF, secretariat (the fuck?), is there any defense for this? [/killingmychancesforapm]

[PCLoadLetter]

You're very brave, daemon, a regular folk hero. Your crusade against my blog should earn you medals, totems erected in your honor. You jumped into the fray like a regular trenchman, your bayonet flashing, your blood pumping.

You're calling me pathetic? Jesus. But here you go. This is what you're asking for, and I aim to please:

"If you don't care whether your writing earns an audience, or money, or an award, then you will never, ever earn any of those things with your words. You will be a failure."

You seem to be confusing the word "or" with the word "and."

If you don't care whether your writing earns any of those things—and I'm talking about journalism here, not poetry, not screenwriting, not literature, but journalism—then you will not make it. That's a fact. That's a pure unavoidable fact of this business. Because it's a business. It's market-driven. It's customer-driven. That's how it works. And if your supremely talented friends tell you—when you beg them for crumbs of wisdom, which they brush off their table for you—that they have somehow made it without giving a shit about any of those things, they are either aberrations or liars.

Now, let's get to the heart of the matter: you. I can't be certain why you didn't make it, because clearly you didn't—you know writers with my exact job, but you're not one of them, are you?

Luckily, though, I have an idea.

Maybe your friends are twice as talented as me, but I'll bet a considerable sum of money (because I care about money; I'd rather have it than not, which I know makes me crazy) that you're not one fucking eighteenth as good as the Mystery Them.

I would also bet every penny I've ever earned that you would give a nut to have what I have.

I'm sorry you're so sad. But daemon, don't blame me for your failings. Don't blame me that the blog I write for fun has a larger audience than you'll ever know.

Oh, I know, brave, sweet daemon, your feelings were stung by what I wrote, and you're trying to make excuses—as you no doubt have for your entire life—as to why you didn't make it.

I'll tell you why. Because you aren't good enough.

And I know you're going to write, Oh no, I have made it! I'm really happy with my life! I'm better than you even! Look how angry you are! Look how insecure you are!

But here I am, and I know you're not anywhere close to me. I know you're just another anonymous Internet gangster, like jgorden, your partner in pussydom, trying to make yourself feel better, trying to prove to all your online friends that you have big balls when it comes to picking fights when you know you'll never have to show your face or your name.

But they know about you, too, daemon. We all know. We all know you didn't make it. We all know you advocated lying on this thread, the issue that you never addressed again.

We all know you're a coward. We all know you're a twat.

Now, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go sit with my wife on the couch and watch a movie. And after, I'm going to go to bed, and I'm going to wake up, and I'm going to be me, and you're still going to be you, and that will make me happier than you can ever imagine.

Thank you.

Glad I wandered back over to this thread.  As internet smackdowns go, that was fucking spectacular.

[MartinonMTV2]

The next question: When does his cloying entourage show up to raise the fallen flag?

P.S.: Even before I finished typing this! Bravo!

[secretariat]

But here I am, and I know you're not anywhere close to me. I know you're just another anonymous Internet gangster, like jgorden, your partner in pussydom, trying to make yourself feel better, trying to prove to all your online friends that you have big balls when it comes to picking fights when you know you'll never have to show your face or your name.

Inky, YF, secretariat (the fuck?), is there any defense for this? [/killingmychancesforapm]

More mitigation than defense. A man's patience has a threshold. Each man's is different. Jones' threshold was crossed.

EDIT: And Martin's trolling of multiple people continues unabated. We all have our parts to play, I suppose.

[YankeeFan]

Face it, guy -- the article wasn't as great as you thought it was. Let that sink in -- not as great as you thought.

Now, move on. You know, like the rest of us do.

Now I think you're really off base.

If anything, I'd say he was insecure about the article. He said he was worried he hadn't done his subject justice.

He said he only thought about it as a potential award winner after he received feedback from it.

So, he got his hopes up and was disappointed, big deal.

I swear, I don't know who else here watches Top Chef, but the more I think about it the more Jones reminds me of Richard Blais (who I'm a fan of).

Blais is incredibly talented, but after each competition he's worried that his dish is the worst or that the judges "won't get it". He's afraid he'll be sent home.

Then he wins the competition, is relieved, and feels good about himself. Or, they give him good feedback at the judges table, so he gets his hopes up, and is then disappointed that he didn't win.

Hey, Jones should do an article on Blais.

[PCLoadLetter]

The next question: When does his cloying entourage show up to raise the fallen flag?

P.S.: Even before I finished typing this! Bravo!

Yep.  First post on the thread and I'm a cloying entourage.

Were you a dick under your previous screen name, too?

[YankeeFan]

Glad I wandered back over to this thread.  As internet smackdowns go, that was fucking spectacular.

It was a pretty spectacular smack down.

[YGBFKM]

Is David Grann on sj? I want to talk to him.

[secretariat]

Is David Grann on sj? I want to talk to him.

He used to post as The Granny.

[MartinonMTV2]

You guys are better than Baghdad Bob. But that was my next guess for what would happen. Before long, the clique will have revised what happened here, and it'll be recalled as another case where the barbarians ran off poor typefitter.

[YGBFKM]

You guys are better than Baghdad Bob. But that was my next guess for what would happen. Before long, the clique will have revised what happened here, and it'll be recalled as another case where the barbarians ran off poor typefitter.

The Typefitter.

[YGBFKM]

Is David Grann on sj? I want to talk to him.

He used to post as The Granny.

I should have known.